frankos1885
OTH Rankings Chairman
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All head-to-head lists are really. Also allows the likes of Bowe and Vitali into top ten realms IMO.
Official OTH top 10 Heavyweight Rankings thread (Greatest and Head to Head)
- Thread starter Bogotazo
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Fitzsimmons as 3 weight champ worth a place?
What? How? He fought 3 bouts at heavy (unless I'm mistaken)...THREE!
He doesn't warrant being even close to a top ten. Dempsey above Lewis is also horrendous.
Tunney was the man at LHW, stepped up, dispensed of the man Dempsey, akin to Tyson reputation at the time, then fucked off. That's a pretty good accomplishment + he was quality. If he did stick around, don't see anyone who'd of have beat him.
* Tunney up to 3?
Dempsey carried the sport to new heights. Only reason dropped him down was black line around during his time.
Greatest:
1. Muhammad Ali
Exceptional resume, deep(est) list of contenders beaten plus wins over multiple top 10 atgs who were in or very close to prime. Inarguably no.1 IMO. The Greatest of All Times.
2. Joe Louis
Longevity stands out more than the names, but there are some immensely talented fighters on his ledger, particularly at the beginning and end of his reign. Maybe the most complete dominance of any champ in any division, but not got the top level names of Ali to touch the greatest.
3. Lennox Lewis
Long list of contenders from a very deep era. Couple of blips aside, extremely dominant in a strong era. Not got the depth of Louis or the heights of Ali to get above them, but still, well worthy of top 3.
4. George Foreman
Not much depth in there when you look closely compared to 3 above, but the peaks are pretty astonishing, taking just a few rounds to demolish Frazier and Norton, plus beating Moorer at that point in his career is pretty special.
5. Evander Holyfield
Unsurpringly my top 5 all come from what I and most consider the standout eras in HW history. Holyfield fought almost everyone, has wins over H2H beasts in Bowe and Tyson, and also surprisingly good performances vs Lewis when past prime which were overshadowed by the horrible scorecards.
6. Larry Holmes
Great longevity, with wins over some talented fighters like Norton, Shavers and a late career win over Mercer.
7. Joe Frazier
Short prime makes his list of wins pretty short, but it’s a hell of a list. Maybe the greatest win in HW history over Ali. Dispatched quite a few contenders in dominant fashion too.
8. Mike Tyson
Complete dominance in something of a wasted era featuring talented fighters that lacked dedication or were just completely dissolutioned with the sport (s/o Don King). Still a crazy run he went on. Late 80’s he was an absolute monster, and continued to add a few names to his res in the 90’s. Tough to reconsile having Holmes 2 places higher when they actually beat a lot of the same guys and Tyson beat him and the guy who dethroned him in just a few rounds. Might need a rethink tbf.
9. Wladimir Klitschko
In a really poor era, he did what he had to do. Any time a challenger emerged, Povetkin, Haye, Pulev he fought them and beat them. Era marred by inactivity and lack of dedication by his opponents means his resume is difficult to judge other than he to say he did what he should have done and dominated it completely.
10. Jack Johnson
I think a little unfairly overlooked due to being overrated in the past. Beat a who’s who of his era, including the black fighters who he dodged once he won the title. I think he did more than guys who have just missed this list like Marciano, Liston and Dempsey although they could all be in with a shout.
1. Muhammad Ali
Exceptional resume, deep(est) list of contenders beaten plus wins over multiple top 10 atgs who were in or very close to prime. Inarguably no.1 IMO. The Greatest of All Times.
2. Joe Louis
Longevity stands out more than the names, but there are some immensely talented fighters on his ledger, particularly at the beginning and end of his reign. Maybe the most complete dominance of any champ in any division, but not got the top level names of Ali to touch the greatest.
3. Lennox Lewis
Long list of contenders from a very deep era. Couple of blips aside, extremely dominant in a strong era. Not got the depth of Louis or the heights of Ali to get above them, but still, well worthy of top 3.
4. George Foreman
Not much depth in there when you look closely compared to 3 above, but the peaks are pretty astonishing, taking just a few rounds to demolish Frazier and Norton, plus beating Moorer at that point in his career is pretty special.
5. Evander Holyfield
Unsurpringly my top 5 all come from what I and most consider the standout eras in HW history. Holyfield fought almost everyone, has wins over H2H beasts in Bowe and Tyson, and also surprisingly good performances vs Lewis when past prime which were overshadowed by the horrible scorecards.
6. Larry Holmes
Great longevity, with wins over some talented fighters like Norton, Shavers and a late career win over Mercer.
7. Joe Frazier
Short prime makes his list of wins pretty short, but it’s a hell of a list. Maybe the greatest win in HW history over Ali. Dispatched quite a few contenders in dominant fashion too.
8. Mike Tyson
Complete dominance in something of a wasted era featuring talented fighters that lacked dedication or were just completely dissolutioned with the sport (s/o Don King). Still a crazy run he went on. Late 80’s he was an absolute monster, and continued to add a few names to his res in the 90’s. Tough to reconsile having Holmes 2 places higher when they actually beat a lot of the same guys and Tyson beat him and the guy who dethroned him in just a few rounds. Might need a rethink tbf.
9. Wladimir Klitschko
In a really poor era, he did what he had to do. Any time a challenger emerged, Povetkin, Haye, Pulev he fought them and beat them. Era marred by inactivity and lack of dedication by his opponents means his resume is difficult to judge other than he to say he did what he should have done and dominated it completely.
10. Jack Johnson
I think a little unfairly overlooked due to being overrated in the past. Beat a who’s who of his era, including the black fighters who he dodged once he won the title. I think he did more than guys who have just missed this list like Marciano, Liston and Dempsey although they could all be in with a shout.
Mental list obviously (if you don’t mind me saying), and Charles should not be that high, but he is worth a shout as an underrated HW. His list of wins at the weight is actually extremely deep considering he isn’t really mentioned as a top HW historically.
Even as a Charles fan I was surprised at how highly he scored when I did my resume rankings thread. Even weighing in as a LHW he was knocking off top HW contenders.
A list of the greatest quasi-great heavyweights would be much more interesting than the by now overdone top 10.
A list for the Ezzard Charles', Jimmy Youngs, Ken Nortons, Floyd Pattersons, Povetkins.
But yea, Ezzard's resume in insane.
Not the longevity of Moore, but the sheer quality is pretty much second to none.
I've ranked him as a dark horse for greatest ever a few times before. (Similar to Armstrong)
ATG
1:Muhammad Ali
2:Joe Louis
3:Lennox Lewis
4:Rocky Marciano
5:Larry Holmes
6:Wladimir Klitschko
7:Jack Johnson
8:George Foreman
9:Joe Frazier
10:Mike Tyson
H2H
1:Muhammad Ali
2:Joe Louis
3:Lennox Lewis
4:Mike Tyson
5:George Foreman
6:Larry Holmes
7:Tyson Fury
8: Riddick Bowe
9:Wladimir Klitschko
10:Vitali Klitschko
1:Muhammad Ali
2:Joe Louis
3:Lennox Lewis
4:Rocky Marciano
5:Larry Holmes
6:Wladimir Klitschko
7:Jack Johnson
8:George Foreman
9:Joe Frazier
10:Mike Tyson
H2H
1:Muhammad Ali
2:Joe Louis
3:Lennox Lewis
4:Mike Tyson
5:George Foreman
6:Larry Holmes
7:Tyson Fury
8: Riddick Bowe
9:Wladimir Klitschko
10:Vitali Klitschko
H2H I haven’t put as much thought into. But I’ll give it a go. Worth mentioning that just because a fighter ranks higher than someone else doesn’t mean I think they beat everyone below them. Styles make fights innit.
1. Muhammad Ali
Every intangible proven to the absolute highest level. Tactical prowess, unbelievable athletic ability. I think he is quick, fit and agile enough to beat top SHWs, and with the boxing skill to compete with the smaller guys.
2. Lennox Lewis
Greatest SHW ever when on his game. Technically excellent with a good chin and hard thudding power, backed up by one of the great boxing minds.
3. George Foreman
Went back and forth a bit, but think this is right to have Big George here. Think he might struggle vs the best SHWs like a Lewis where he doesn’t have the size and strength advantage, but vs the majority of opponents at his best he will be a nightmare to face. He could be surprisingly nimble in his prime as well when he wanted to be, and that may have been more obvious in modern eras
5. Evander Holyfield
Skill, heart, toughness, proven ability to mix it with the best SHWs and skilled smaller HWs.
6. Mike Tyson
If you are gonna be smaller, you should have blistering speed and power and a great chin to back you up. Iron Mike has these in abundance. Fair to comment that he lacks a win over an elite opponent though, but this is not that uncommon at HW.
7. Tyson Fury
Might be too soon fir some, but his versatility, composure, heart and size see him climbing these rankings for me. The addition of SH Steward has added extra levels to his game.
8. Joe Frazier
Certain fighters may desk with him quite easily, but at his best the combination of fitness, power, heart and skill is tough to ignore.
9. Joe Louis
Criminally underrated H2H. His blistering combos, devilish trap setting and power would have seen him through against most top fighters in history, SHW or not. People talk abiout his chin but he was rarely that hurt during his prime, though his style was susceptible to flash KDs, he was only stopped as youngster vs Schmekking and as an old man vs Marciano, bath after multiple rounds of punishment. Louis more than most seems to get judged of his worst nights rather than his best.
10. Sonny Liston
Hard hard fucker. Powerful, intimidating and a very good boxer. Had SHW reach and power, with a smaller HWs nimbleness and footwork.
1. Muhammad Ali
Every intangible proven to the absolute highest level. Tactical prowess, unbelievable athletic ability. I think he is quick, fit and agile enough to beat top SHWs, and with the boxing skill to compete with the smaller guys.
2. Lennox Lewis
Greatest SHW ever when on his game. Technically excellent with a good chin and hard thudding power, backed up by one of the great boxing minds.
3. George Foreman
Went back and forth a bit, but think this is right to have Big George here. Think he might struggle vs the best SHWs like a Lewis where he doesn’t have the size and strength advantage, but vs the majority of opponents at his best he will be a nightmare to face. He could be surprisingly nimble in his prime as well when he wanted to be, and that may have been more obvious in modern eras
5. Evander Holyfield
Skill, heart, toughness, proven ability to mix it with the best SHWs and skilled smaller HWs.
6. Mike Tyson
If you are gonna be smaller, you should have blistering speed and power and a great chin to back you up. Iron Mike has these in abundance. Fair to comment that he lacks a win over an elite opponent though, but this is not that uncommon at HW.
7. Tyson Fury
Might be too soon fir some, but his versatility, composure, heart and size see him climbing these rankings for me. The addition of SH Steward has added extra levels to his game.
8. Joe Frazier
Certain fighters may desk with him quite easily, but at his best the combination of fitness, power, heart and skill is tough to ignore.
9. Joe Louis
Criminally underrated H2H. His blistering combos, devilish trap setting and power would have seen him through against most top fighters in history, SHW or not. People talk abiout his chin but he was rarely that hurt during his prime, though his style was susceptible to flash KDs, he was only stopped as youngster vs Schmekking and as an old man vs Marciano, bath after multiple rounds of punishment. Louis more than most seems to get judged of his worst nights rather than his best.
10. Sonny Liston
Hard hard fucker. Powerful, intimidating and a very good boxer. Had SHW reach and power, with a smaller HWs nimbleness and footwork.
Three wins at the weight does not justify inclusion in an all time top ten. Dempsey is one of the most overrated heavies in existence.
He was good, he was exciting but he was not even close to being good enough to be in the top ten.
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I think Dempsey sits quite well with a few fighters who were around 10-15. Marciano, Johnson, Dempsey, Liston etc
Think we would have a better view of him if we saw the pre title version of him. Looking at his activity level, it would be like only having footage of post prison Tyson and wondering what all the fuss was about.
That's fair. I just think that if you don't fight several of the best available opponents of your day and you lose twice to your most skilled opponent...you're not getting anywhere near the top ten.
There's also 20 fights over 4 rounds and a fair amount of poor opposition.
Top 15? Maybe. Top 10? No chance.
No arguments.
Wouldn't usually have Tunney, Charles, Dempsey top ten, tbh, but look exactly same as rest posted up. Thought try something different.
Lewis resume more impressive than Tunney? Never beat "the man" KO'd twice.
Fair comments. Between SRR and Charles as p4p great post 40s for me.
He was HW for decent run + 2 other division dominant. Collectively looks pretty impressive.
Lewis' record is infinitely more impressive at heavy. KOd twice but avenged both. Beat another all time great in Holyfield, beat the guy who had been beating Bowe and at the end of his career beat the guy who was one of the next two dominant champs.
Then has numerous high level wins with destructive KO wins and classy points wins.
Tunney has two top level wins, both against the same man, both at the end of that man's career and that man himself is a bit overrated.
Dempsey at time considered greatest HW. Tunney beat him twice. When Dempsey floored him, only time his entire career. Never KOd.
Tunney situation somewhat similar (not really) to if Holyfield stepped up, beat Tyson twice early 90s, then retired.
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Not really, Holyfield had like 30 fights at heavyweight. He was classed as past prime by the time he beat Tyson.
Yeah, it's an excellent couple of wins. Apparently he took a knee against Houck.