Getting to know Carlos Monzon

Davie

**2020 OTH Poster of the Year**
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Thanks Davie. Watched the Valdez bouts back to back. Reg Gutteridge on comms for the rematch-brilliant. Benvenuiti next.

I expect full scorecards posted by the end of the day.

And it's 23.21 here now.
 
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Honestly never cared for him. I wouldn't give a dollar for his ability. He'd fair horribly against guys like McCallum, Nunn,Hearns, Hopkins, Hagler, Jones, etc etc etc
 

Davie

**2020 OTH Poster of the Year**
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Honestly never cared for him. I wouldn't give a dollar for his ability. He'd fair horribly against guys like McCallum, Nunn,Hearns, Hopkins, Hagler, Jones, etc etc etc

That is a fairly diverse bunch of fighters you have listed there, with a range of attributes, skills, strengths and weaknesses.
What do you mean by fighter "like McCallum, Nunn,Hearns, Hopkins, Hagler, Jones"?
To say he'd fair horribly, implies there is some stylistic issue he would not be able to overcome, but I struggle to see what the common stylistic factor is between that group. The only thing I see is that Monzon was a big middleweight for his day and unlike some tall fighters he did not have an issue with smaller men, in fact he was expert in applying his physical advantages. Hagler aside, all of those guys would at very least match Monzon's dimensions.

Do you just think they are all simply a level above? Because I have watched all extensively and cannot agree with you.
Each one is a very good fighter, if not a great fighter. Some of those names would be the best Monzon had faced, the rest would be close to it.
I'd have to give it a lot of thought over which of those names I'd favour over him but to say he would fair horribly against all, is a massive stretch, in fact I could punch holes in theory pretty quickly with one or two of them.
 
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That is a fairly diverse bunch of fighters you have listed there, with a range of attributes, skills, strengths and weaknesses.
What do you mean by fighter "like McCallum, Nunn,Hearns, Hopkins, Hagler, Jones"?
To say he'd fair horribly, implies there is some stylistic issue he would not be able to overcome, but I struggle to see what the common stylistic factor is between that group. The only thing I see is that Monzon was a big middleweight for his day and unlike some tall fighters he did not have an issue with smaller men, in fact he was expert in applying his physical advantages. Hagler aside, all of those guys would at very least match Monzon's dimensions.

Do you just think they are all simply a level above? Because I have watched all extensively and cannot agree with you.
Each one is a very good fighter, if not a great fighter. Some of those names would be the best Monzon had faced, the rest would be close to it.
I'd have to give it a lot of thought over which of those names I'd favour over him but to say he would fair horribly against all, is a massive stretch, in fact I could punch holes in theory pretty quickly with one or two of them.
I basically think they're a level above. McClellan as well would take him to task IMO. His best win was over Napoles who had no business at middleweight. Feel free to poke holes though.
 

Davie

**2020 OTH Poster of the Year**
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Agree with Tom, all things considered it is Valdez.

A legit middleweight not past prime and a quality fighter from what I have seen

Not "great" in the way Griffith or Napoles were, maybe never even accomplished more than Benvenuti but he was a class act amd a huge win at the tail end of Monzon's career.

Briscoe doesn't come close for me.
 

Davie

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Jose Napoles vs Ernie Lopez 1

Another fighter he faced twice was Lopez, first in 70


Jose Napoles vs Ernie Lopez 2

Napoles vs Lopez 1

1. 10-8 Napoles. Lopes wants to start fast and make a mark, Napoles eases his way in and clips him with a left hook and drops him. Pressed well from then on.

2. 9-10 Lopez, good workrate again and he starts getting through leading with the right hand in the second half of the round. Napoles still pacing himself, very calm.

3. 10-9 Napoles, countering well particularly to the body early, Lopez catches him a few times late but Napoles exchanges and comes out best from most tussles

4. 10-9 Napoles, starts a lot of things on the body and works up, he's very good at timing the 2nd and third shot in a combination, particularly under pressure during an exchange, composed and chooses the right punches.

5. 9-10 Lopez lands a lot of nice right hands, many thrown as single shots. He hasn't got a lot on them as he's sneaking them in but lands clean several times.

6. 10-9 Napoles close round, Napoles moving his head better but not much else to split it.

7. 10-9 Napoles back to good head movement and punch picking, left hook landing consistently

8. 10-9 Napoles, a little lighter on his feet here, in and out, dishing out 2 or 3 good shots every time he's in range. Looks one of these guys that has good solid power in every shot, without loading up or being a murderous puncher

9. 10-8 Napoles. Just too much for him, he's just consistently outlanded him for 4 rounds now. Not a devastating shot and accumulation.

10. 10-9 Napoles. Can't see Lopez get another round, Napoles is setting the pace nicely, nice fluid punching. I miss it sometimes but he constantly picks away to the body, maybe every 4th or 5th shot but he never neglects the body.

11. 10-10 Even. Napoles cruising a little picking away with the jab and occasional right hand, Lppez landing to the body.

12. 10-9 Napoles, still coasting a bit but controlling the tempo very well, Lopez can't really get into it

13. 10-9 Napoles. Had a feeling Lopez was about to edge one, scoring a few good shots but I think Jose sensed he was letting it slip and upped the pace and started rocking Lopez late.

14. 9-10 Lopez, terrific round, best of the fight so far. Napoles comes out at the same tempo he finished the last and it suits Lopez who has been getting out boxed. Both guys throw big shots and land plenty, think Lopez just got through with slightly more.

15. TKO Napoles, another war of a round, this fight was snoozing for a good few rounds but halfway through the 13th it came alive. Napoles eventually puts him over, part through good shots and part tiredness I suspect, then he just keeps pressing and throwing and forces the ref to step in. I misread the Boxrec and thought this was 15 rnd decision fight.

137- 128 Napoles going in to the 15th, had it finished it would have been another 10-8 which would have been an 11 point margin
Good performance from Napoles against a solid opponent.
 
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Davie

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Jose Napoles vs Billy Backus 2


1. 10-9 Napoles. Ernie not starting as well here, missing with everything and Napoles starts quick catching him with plenty. Although he becomes a little inaccurate toward the end himself.

2. 9-10 Lopez. Good use of the left hook by both, think I saw Lopez land a couple more and scored a good right hand and some body shots.

3. 10-9 Napoles. First half Napoles built a lead coming forward, leading, being the aggressor with two and three shots at a time. Goes back to circling and trying to catch Lopez coming in with the counter left hook and missing. Nice uppercut from Napoles late though

4. 10-9 Napoles persisting with that left hook that isn't landing, his straight shots fair better. But he wins it in accounts of Ernie landing little other than a couple body shots while Napoles still gets a few hooks through. Poor round

5. 10-9 Napoles. Both doing better coming forward throwing more than one shot. Napoles looked slightly ahead early but twice I felt Lopez creeped ahead in the round with good right hands, but heavy pressure from Napoles late nicked it. Many would disagree.

6. 10-9 Napoles. Came off his stool like a man looking to end it. Didn't pan out that way but he won the round

7. KO Napoles. Had to watch it back to catch that knock out blow, it was a sneaky one.
He was piling on to Ernie and he threw a left hook right uppercut a couple times before it and is landing well, in the end it is a realy short uppercut that catches Ernie dipping down, clipping the top of his head.

It seems to have Lopez in a bad way and Napoles is right over showing serious concern.

I don't know if that had a lasting effect but Ernie fights on. But it is telling that the only other stoppage loss was to Napoles in the 15th. After this shot Ernie never reaches the final bell of a fight again, perhaps tells a story, maybe one for the older heads to answer.
 

Davie

**2020 OTH Poster of the Year**
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Finally, we need Carlos Monzon vs Jose Napolez in 1974 for the undisputed world middleweight title


Carlos Monzon vs Jose Napoles.

Having watched Jose Napoles, he possibly is slightly over the hill by the time he faces Monzon. He is a natural welterweight who only every fights the 1 fight at middleweight and has a clear disadvantage in height and reach.
But putting this all aside, watching his fights and his resume develop, he is no greater a fighter than Monzon, no better a welterweight than Carlos was a middleweight, before you even consider age and weight and height and reach.
And his resume is good and he was dominant and a long reigning champ but there are no greater names on there than Monzon has on his. An unquestionable ATG but I have already basically placed all the asterisks before it prior to watching a punch thrown.

1. 9-10 Napoles. Having to really lunge and work hard to get his shots through but he does it, eats some jabs to get there but he does get under the shots and whip fast shots in, the speed still there for Napoles

2. 10-9 Monzon. Napoles dipping back out of the range doesnt work. Needs to slip inside and under shots and get into range, Monzon working on the back foot makes life hard for Napoles to get to him. Monzons strength evident as he pushes Napoles away with a left hand, as if manoeuvring a man half his size

3. 9-10 Napoles. Close one, both landing with the jab, Napoles doing well to get his off. He also lands some good work to the body. Monzons shots look slower than usual, but still long and still heavy.

4. 10-9 Monzon. Another close round. Monzon catching Napoles on the end of a lot of long shots. Napoles catching Monzon napping after he lands, coming back with his own on occasion.

5. 10-9 Monzon. He consistently lands solid long shots on Napoles, not devastating just shot after shot, all doing damage. Napoles was coming back early but he starts to tire visibly, he's hurt the last minute and Monzon just teeing off and really punishing him

6. 10-9 Monzon another wide wide round. The shots are very accurate, when you don't have great speed and your target is moving all the time, his ability to land every shot in 3 punch combinations is spectacular, even if they look lethargic. Napoles really in trouble late on

7. It's over, they pulled him as the bell rang.

Napoles had his little spells of success and showed he could get to him and could hurt him. But he was never going to shake him and even the rounds he won, he ate stiff shots to get there.
And Monzons shots are all solid, he doesnt throw a lot of knockout shots and he doesn't load up to try them either, he just consistently lands hurting punches, sometimes just arm punches and they break a fighter down. He uses all the tools at his disposal to make sure they land too, I can talk about the advantages in height and reach and the obvious disparity in strength in there but he uses his movement just right not that he has to move a great deal, he intelligently manoeuvres his opponent with strength and easy and his shots are sometimes unerringly accurate, it is frightening sometimes the way he just keeps finding the target.

There is very little style to what he does but it is like the German automobile, it is beautifully efficient.
 

Davie

**2020 OTH Poster of the Year**
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Well like Briscoe, I don't see much reason to dig much deeper. Like Briscoe there is more footage there but I watched some of Napoles best wins and there isn't much point in seeing what he had left after the Monzon fight. Maybe if I were declaring this a tremendous win I'd want to challenge that narrative but there is little point, it was a largely dominant win against a guy I couldn'r see posing a real threat beforehand and proved me right.

It is probably testament to how good Monzon was that an ATG like Naploes is given virtually no chance before a punch is thrown and never looked like winning in the fight.
But I can't take away the favt that no matter how good a champion Napoles was, you just cannot put this down as an elite level win.
Another stunningly destructive and ruthlessly effective win, the performance desrves credit but on a resume, it needs a couple **
 

Davie

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Tony Mundine Sr

This fella up on my list now. I've watched the Briscoe defeat earlier and we saw he was a kinda flashy fighter.
Think the footage is thin on the ground but I'm going to start with a reported classic that came early in his career.
Tony Mundine vs Kalu Mahanga

 

Davie

**2020 OTH Poster of the Year**
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Little bit of footage of Mundine vs Griffith


And late career stuff against Bunny Johnson
(Interesting fact, Tony also fought Bunny Sterling, can't be many fighters dmfaced two Bunnys in their time)

 

Davie

**2020 OTH Poster of the Year**
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And round it off with him getting his teeth kicked in by our man Monzon.

Carlos Monzon vs Tony Mundine

 

Davie

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Tony Mundine Sr

This fella up on my list now. I've watched the Briscoe defeat earlier and we saw he was a kinda flashy fighter.
Think the footage is thin on the ground but I'm going to start with a reported classic that came early in his career.
Tony Mundine vs Kalu Mahanga


The pre fight presenter selling this as a legendary war, that will go down in folklore.
Expecting a good clash

1. 10-9 Mundine. Both landed good shots, just feel that Mundine was riding some of them, moving just enough to take the impact of many of them.

2. 10-9 Mundine, he really lets his hands go on a couple of occasions. Mahanga swinging some big shots in and falling just short, I feel Mundine is only a slight misjudgment away from taking one of these full on. It's a risky game he's playing

3. 9-10 Mahanga. Lots landed by Mundine but Mahanga stunned him with 4 or 5 really good shots. Great round.

4. 10-9 Mundine. Mahanga landed a couple more good ones early and covered up well but Mundine found openings and got more and more success as he round wore on,

5. 10-9 Mundine, the last 3 rounds have been tremendous. Mundine lands some well controlled accurate shots here that really knock Mahanga around but he comes back swinging like a wild man and maybe just hurts Mundine late as well.

6. 9-10 Mahanga. Mundine not moving so well and Mahenga nailing him with hard individual shots, mainly hooks. He has to feel that. Think these are 2 minute rounds, slightly strange....

7. 8-10 Mahanga. Yep, 2 minute rounds. Anyway, Mundine maybe edging the quietest first minute we've had, then he opens up, looks like he's getting to him then I think he walks into a right hand, the gumshield flies into the crowd and Mundine drops hard.

8. Skipped straight to the 9th :(

9. KO. Doesn't last long but great action while it does and I think it was a short right, in close that drops him. Mundine rolls about and looks hurt but has his senses and looks to beat the count, he sprang up so he knew what he was doing, maybe just mis-times it.

That was a belting wee scrap. Need one of the Aussies to confirm, did 10 rounders like this get fought over 2 minute rounds, the footage didn't seem to skip.
 

Davie

**2020 OTH Poster of the Year**
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Little bit of footage of Mundine vs Griffith


And late career stuff against Bunny Johnson
(Interesting fact, Tony also fought Bunny Sterling, can't be many fighters dmfaced two Bunnys in their time)


Griffith vs Mundine.
Not great footage and only about a round and a half. Looks like Mundine is boxing well but Griffith giving him all he can handle
Boxrec probably tells me more than Youtube does here, Griffith 35 and just come off the 2nd competitive loss to Monzon,
Mundine 22 and this is only a couple fights before he faces him. Mundine beats Griffith on the cards and does so more widely over 10 than Monzon does over 15.
So a good solid result ahead of Mundines big shot
 

Davie

**2020 OTH Poster of the Year**
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Mundine vs Bunny Johnson

Tasty little scrap from the footage available.
This is at light heavyweight against capable Bunny Johnson.
Hard to judge on this as Mundine is in his 30's, Bunny is at the end of a long career. He has a win in his previous fight over Mike Quarry but he is even closer to the end of his career.
It shows Mundine can handle a larger man
Interestingly, his next fight he weighed 174.5lb, fighting for the Australian LHW, CW and HW titles in one fight and won.

The last round in this footage is an enjoyable scrap and finishes with a very heavy right hand
 

Davie

**2020 OTH Poster of the Year**
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Carlos Monzon vs Tony Mundine

I don't like Mundines style for Monzon, I don't see how he gets to him. He is reasonably tall and can mix with big lads by the looks of it but I can see him getting stood upright and picked off. He likes to fight slick without a great guard but he likes to look slick on the outside then come straight in punching.

1. 9-10 Mundine. Very close round, get the feeling Monzon is welcoming him on to him, happy to take the back foot. Very similar shots landed, give Mundine it for being the aggressor could have been 10-10, he did try some big shots...

2. 9-10 Mundine. Landed a good left hook very early, not much else to write about, Mundine making those slow Monzon shots miss from the outside but not working in to try and fire back

3. 10-9 Monzon. Mundine landing a few more hooks early, his evasive movement is giving Monzon bother. But Monzon unloads a few times in the second half and I believe a few landed. Can't be sure so probably should have scored to Mundine.

4. 10-9 Monzon. He finished strong again to take this but Mundine doesn't lack confidence coming straight at Monzon

5. 10-9 Monzon. Monzon can't dominate from distance, with the reach advantage here, he's not calmly throwing those 3 punch combinations. Mundine also slippery and can reach Carlos. Carlos doesnt do lateral upper body movement, so leaning right back, would like to see Mundine throw a left hook then a looping overhand right.

*scratch that, he lunges at him with that kind of shot early in 6 and Monzon got very good use of his arms to block wide shots as he moves back

6. 10-9 Monzon. He came out on the front foot immediately edging Mundine back. Either a pre-planned tactical move or he got a feeling there was a shift in the last round. Mundine took a battering here, the end nears

7. KO Monzon. That right hand is like swinging a hammer when he tries to take someone out, seldom throws it full power but when he does? :punch

58-56 Monzon. A good but not great performance against a good but not great opponent but he faced things he is often accused of avoiding, height, youth, reach, speed and enthusiasm. Mundine came to fight, was similar in stature and coming off a better win over Griffith.
Monzon not dominant so a c+ performance but the tactics were spot on, let him come on to him and over reach for shots early then he turned it round at the right point and took him apart. With Mundines slipperiness, Carlos could have been swinging at nothing early, he bides his time and waits for the openings to present themselves.

Not a bad showing from a pretty good fighter in Mundine.
 

Davie

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Tony Licata not sure anyone will list this among Monzons great wins but I'll check it out

I'm at this stage in the Monzon TV series and he's decided to retire and make films. There is a 9 month gap between fights, which was unheard of in Monzons reign. And knowing he liked to live the life between fights, this would have been chosen to get him back into the swing of things ahead of the match up everyone would have wanted to see between Monzon and Rodrigo Valdes.

Licata has a solid record avenging any draws on his record and the only loss was 2 fights before Monzon, immediately rectified

There's wins over Griffith and Moyer a year or two earlier too, so it's not just all filler

I can only find Licata vs Alan Minter a year after Monzon, so I'll start with that, I feel Minter will be a good comparison at world level

 
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