Getting to know Carlos Monzon

It can be heavy going when you are tired. The commentary is hard going too some times Don Dunphy and Howard Cossell can be difficult to listen to when you are used to that silver tongued devil Adam Smith.

With regards to your last statement, someone on another forum tore Monzons resume to shreds, every win was a dodgy result, a past prime fighter, was moving up in weight, the opponent wasn't elite or in the case of Rodrigo Valdes he avoided him for years. It's hard to refute a lot of that and I wanted to judge it for myself.

However, for every asterisk there are some quality performances and the whole body of work is starting to look impressive but I've always disputed where he stands in the middleweight ranking, particularly against his contemporary Hagler.

Yeah I think with anybody who goes undefeated through a lot of different fighters, It’s almost a given that there are asterixs’. I think the way his record came out in my Resume thread showed that, even despite those asterixs, he was fighting the best guys around consistently. Almost every year of his reign he fought a top 1/2 MW, which is very impressive.

I was going to mention actually that, if you had the energy, this thread would lead perfectly into a ‘getting to know Marvin Hagler’ thread. Some common opponents on their resumes after all. Like Monzon his most famous nights came vs smaller guys stepping up, but he also had a solid list of MWs on his ledger as well.
 

Davie

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Yeah I think with anybody who goes undefeated through a lot of different fighters, It’s almost a given that there are asterixs’. I think the way his record came out in my Resume thread showed that, even despite those asterixs, he was fighting the best guys around consistently. Almost every year of his reign he fought a top 1/2 MW, which is very impressive.

I was going to mention actually that, if you had the energy, this thread would lead perfectly into a ‘getting to know Marvin Hagler’ thread. Some common opponents on their resumes after all. Like Monzon his most famous nights came vs smaller guys stepping up, but he also had a solid list of MWs on his ledger as well.

It would but it's not the energy that would be the issue, it's more that we all know Hagler that bit better
And I watched every one of his fights in a boxset a couple years back. I know Hagler very well and knew a lot more about the fighters he fought and how highly pretty much all of those wins should be rated. If anyone did a Hagler tread it wouldn't be mine.

I threw a few ideas around in the OP, if I do another one of these I think I fancy the Chacon era but that one could grow arms and legs
 

Davie

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This should be interesting, because the second fight I just watched was in 74 for the WBC title Monzon had vacated after "retiring". Monzon accused then of ducking Valdez.
I've seen it stated that Monzon waited till Valdez got old, which is an odd claim seeing as Monzon was 4 years older than Valdez and had every bit as long a career.
So here we are in 77, with Valdez coming after two grueling points defeats to Monzon and ranked 1 and Briscoe ranked two again, fighting for both titles. Vacated of course by the recently properly retired Monzon. Briscoes loss to Monzon is up next but that was back in 72, he'd lost twice to Valdez and once to Griffith but since then had gone on a pretty solid 13 fight unbeaten run leading into this one.

1. 9-10 Briscoe. Well that tells a story, Briscoe starts in typically fast fashion and Valdez lets him, backing to the ropes and not letting his hands go....

2. 9-10 Briscoe, a few shifts in momentum. When he worked Valdez looked the fighter I watched last time out but Briscoe allowed to have just enough of the round to take it. Feels like Valdez is coming to life now though

3. 10-9 Valdez. Lets Briscoe waste some shots on his gloves and arms, then opens up with short little uppercuts inside that land with ease against Briscoe's open style, he hurts him then puts some punishment on him against the ropes. Briscoe needs to protect himself better ĺ

4. 10-9 Valdez. He's not keen on working at range here, content to stand well within range and let go series of upper cuts, hooks and "45's" as someone once put it. It's working, Briscoe keeps throwing, doesn't cover up well and the head movement stops when he is close, so gets caught consistently, but when Valdez stops punching his defence is solid.

5. 10-9 Valdez. Goes on his bike for a minute and Bemriscoe gets through with a few jabs, once Valdez goes back to work, the quality is there. He does stray low a few times and I thought a couple of times after he was warned

6. 10-9 Valdez. Not the best round, both men seem to be pacing themselves for the 15 round distance which neither did last time

7.10-9 Valdez, more variety in his work now, more mobile, working at different ranges, from the outside and up close and he looks the better man at both distances. Briscoe missing far too often, not defending well at all and looking tired.

8. 10-9 Valdez, more of this round fought in close, particularly the second half and Valdez knows the shots that land and keeps on firing them. Briscoe does not learn.

9. 10-9 Valdez. Much closer round, for the first 2 minutes Briscoe having some success but toward the end, Valdez backs of and starts pick him off with the long one-two to make sure of the round

10. 10-9 Valdez. His ability to land 3 and 4 punch combinations here is scary, maybe 70% power, nice solid, quick flush punches. Not sure if it is more to do with Valdez skill of Briscoe's lack of defence.

11. 10-9 Valdez. Coasts a bit, moving nicely showing good footwork, flicking the shots out. Near the end Briscoe lands a nice one two and Vladez, just to be on the safe side pummels him with 7 or 8 uppercuts on the inside, most of which get through, to make sure of the round

12. 9-10 Briscoe. Valdez goes from moving and boxing to a toe to toe battle, he's winning that too, with Briscoe giving a good account of himself, when Briscoe lands two shots hard in the dying seconds which appear to stun Valdez.

13. 10-9 Valdez, that last round gets you think "could he do it". Well no, Vakdez goes back to the outside, moves well, still energy in the legs albeit pushing shots out at times. Briscoe cannot get the fight where he wants it long enough but looks to have gas left in the tank.

14. 10-9 Valdez. Huge round for him, boxes for the most part but lands the heavy one-twos and moves off laterally to keep Bricoe from setting anything up, this is one well rounded fighter.

15. 10-9 A good final round and these two guys worked hard for 15 rounds and still going well towards the end, they both had little lulls where they looked to be slowing but came back and bashed on, impressive engines for fighters in their 30's

147 - 138 Valdez. What a fighter.

The last fight they said Valdez starts slow and on this occasion he actually did but once he settled in he never looked back.
Said it last fight, Valdez is more thoughtful, a reactive fighter, sees what is coming and evades it, see's an opening and picks his shot. Briscoe ploughs forward, his head movement consistent his shots thrown routinely, he looks the kind of guy a clever fighter could suss out and predict and that is exactly what Valdez is, a clever fighter, who beats him at every range, beats him in most departments and has the advatages over him in most physical attributes to boot.
Briscoe does a lot of things well and he's tough as hell and hard working, a nightmare for some fighters. But not this one, Valdez has the answer to most of those problems and in fact does many of those things better.
Briscoe however has very little defence, he relies on the head movement at first, has no guard and does very little to protect himself in close. As the fight wears on his head movement dries up and I think the defensive strategy is "my head is made of concrete" and hope that gets him through

For Monzon, I'm not sure what we learn from late in 77 about Briscoe for the 72 Monzon fight. Nothing more than we already knew, he's a tough hombre and I think his style may prove troublesome at time but I think he is a full level or two below Valdez and Monzon.
But his style wasn't a foil for Valdez who is a remarkably well rounded fighter and I think a fucking headache for any middleweight in history head to head.
He was more impressive stopping Briscoe in the second fight but he showed here he was still outstanding come 77. Did Monzon benefit from leaving it 4 years? Maybe, I'll consider that more when I go more in depth into Valdez career but for now this is about Briscoe...


This fight report was brought to you in memory of @Super Hans
 

Davie

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Carlos Monzon vs Bennie Briscoe 2

1. 10-9 Monzon, Accuracy of those long shots is impressive against a moving target, if Briscoe can't get inside those, he's in trouble

2. 10-9 Monzon, laser accurate jab keeping Briscoe at bay, landing right hands too but not puttingna huge amount into them. Briscoe firing from range, either falling short or Monzon able to ride the punches.

3. 10-9 Monzon. Briscoes best round, landed a few but eating shots to get them off. Monzon lands in between so still wins the round clearly

4. 10-9 Monzon, the commentary has mentioned Briscoe being tired umpteen time, I don't see it, he just isn't throwing because the shots aren't there.

5. 10-9 Monzon. Commentary expected the body attack from Briscoe and it's not there. I expected Monzon to need to work the body due to Briscoes head movement and to slow him down, but no need, complete control and outstanding accuracy to the head.

6. 10-9 Monzon. Very one sided, just keeps edging back, working opening for the right and landing it regularly, lifting Briscoes head with uppercuts, mixing in left hooks when Briscoe expects to slip a jab, superb.

7. 10-9 Monzon. Briscoe starts parrying shots and Monzon starts varying the order of shots and throwing a bit snappier. Think the strongest shot is the left hook Monzon throws at the end of a 3 shot combo.

8. 10-9 Monzon. Again, he throws the left right as arm punches just trying to get them in quick and accurate but when he adds the left its a swinging hook come uppercut, that's the short he turns his body into. I think he's confident it will land because Briscoe brings his right across to block the straight shots

9. 9-10 Briscoe. He was having a better round backing Monzon to the ropes with shots to the body. He lands one right that truly rocks Monzon, "You hurt him! You see. You see. He's not a Machine, He's a Man"

10. 10-9 Monzon started cautiously and grew into the round but towards the end when the shots are flowing Briscoe found a route through with 2 big left hands.

11. 10-9 Monzons best round, rocked him a few times but I disagree that Briscoe looked hurt after those shots. Would like to see Monzon finish combinations dropping from head to body once Briscoe raises his arms

12. 10-9 Monzon. Briscoe looks like a fighter that might have joy throwing with his opponent but as the commentator says he likes to wait till you stop before throwing his own. He doesn't protect himself that well, he'd be as well trying to catch you.

13. 10-9 Monzon. Real one sided here. Briscoe doesn't look hurt but he is taking some punishment, his corner could think about pulling him here.

14. 10-9 Monzon. Calmly just firing out the same shots over and over, they keep working but he does get a bit casual and gets caught with the right a couple times

15. 10-9 Monzon. Just kept it going right to the end

149-136 Monzon. I gave Briscoe one round and I struggle to see where I found more than that previously. The commentator gave Monzon credit for the tactics andnrightly so, he fought a smart fight, less aggressive, more at range, moving backwards constantly. Got it pretty spot on but for the odd lapse in concentration.

Briscoe wasn't great here, I gave him more credit than I should coming into it, thinking his style might trouble Monzon. I had watched it before but couldn't remember exactly how it played out. His style did give Monzon something to think about and that inspired the change in tactics from the outset but he was levels below Valdez in both fights in 74 and 77, he was levels below Monzon here in 1972 and I'm sure I remember him being taken apart by Marvelous Marv too. Briscoe was a good contender with a great engine and a tough skull but there were too many holes in his game.

His defence is leaky, his movement and punching look limited and poorly timed, I commented on him not being reactive, not thinking about what he throws just operating on autopilot and if you are a smart enough fighter to defuse his weapons he can't adjust.

This is another top Monzon performance against a decent but limited fighter. Yet another asterix and quite a big one.
 

Davie

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When’s “getting to know winky Wright” coming @Davie ?

You know what, I have tried to get to know Winky a couple of times, I can't really get started with him.

Think I have watched back one or two of his fights a couple times and the only ones I think I remember seeing are Vargas and Trinidad. He fought in the middle of a good era and faced a lot of good names too, just struggle to get watching him
 
You know what, I have tried to get to know Winky a couple of times, I can't really get started with him.

Think I have watched back one or two of his fights a couple times and the only ones I think I remember seeing are Vargas and Trinidad. He fought in the middle of a good era and faced a lot of good names too, just struggle to get watching him

Oh man he was one of my favourite fighters to watch.

Even his lower profile fights are interesting because of his style.I love that style.
 

Davie

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Oh man he was one of my favourite fighters to watch.

Even his lower profile fights are interesting because of his style.I love that style.

I don't know what it is, I can't take to the guy.
Watched loads of fights of all the guys he faced, I just don't watch them against him.

It's bad when I have watched 10x as many Hopkins fights and won't even watch Hopkins vs Wright
:lol:
 
You know what, I have tried to get to know Winky a couple of times, I can't really get started with him.

Think I have watched back one or two of his fights a couple times and the only ones I think I remember seeing are Vargas and Trinidad. He fought in the middle of a good era and faced a lot of good names too, just struggle to get watching him

Aye he was awkward af. Did you play Fight night? It had dogshit fighter ratings. Haye rated above Lennox, George foreman, the klitschkos. Your boy Carlos wasnt even in the 90s iirc :lol:
 

Davie

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U ever watch this @Davie ? its one of Winkys more entertaining fights.5 knockdowns in it or something.Albeit its a green Winky.

I'll give it a go.

He's one of those fighters whose career and resume gets on my radar regularly and I want to find out more about Winky the fighter, then I watch one and just kind of abandon it.
 

Davie

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Marvelous Marvin Hagler vs Bennie Briscoe

1. 10-9 Hagler. Quick, more mobile than usual, fluid, active and accurate. Almost scoring at will with Bennie marching forward without throwing enough.

2. 10-9 Hagler. Bennie outboxed again. He's letting more shots go when in close but Hagler with a tight defence then uses his feet well to get out and reset. The commentary scored it to Briscoe, I think that's generous, not sure how much he landed, he did throw the heavier shots go though

3. 10-9 Hagler. Consistently landing the jab, making good use of the uppercut too. Marvin is swiching stances constanlty and moving to stop Briscoe getting set. On the odd occasion he corners him, Briscoe gets good body shots in

4. 9-10 Briscoe. Hagler maybe lands more but it's largely jabs. Briscoe slowed his movement with that constant body attack amd Marvin will have to dig deep to win the inside fight if he doesn't have the energy to keep moving.

5. 10-9 Hagler. Moves and jabs the first minute then it returns to an inside war and Hagler throws a lot of hard leather. One thing you can say is this is 2 of the hardest chins in boxing in there.

6. 10-9 Hagler. Managed to maintain the distance a little better but Briscoe just willing to walk through shots at times, he really does force even the best fighters to have to work incredibly hard to get the win over him.

7. 10-9 Hagler. Looked as though he hurt him there. Briscoe puts pressure on with his movement and forces the other man to work but he doesn't always pressure with his fists, he often stands in range taking punishment and he has been outworked by Monzon, Valdez and now Hagler.

8.10-9 Hagler. Early in the round he lands 4 right jabs, switches stance and direction and lands 4 left jabs, he can't miss with them. Backs Briscoe to the ropes and works away but Bennie gets some success in exchanges here.

9. 10-9 Hagler. He lands a lot of shots, if Briscoe ended his career with all his faculties it would have been a miracle, the man takes punishment. He lands a few but it's relentless volume from the younger fitter Hagler.

10. 10-9 Hagler, closes out the show working away, not a barn burning finish but set to the good solid tempo the full fight was fought at.

99-91 Hagler. Not sure I learned that much watching Briscoe in with 3 top fighters. They all beat him comfortably albeit he forces them to work. Hagler went with a similar tactic to Monzon in sticking the jab in his face all night but without the reach advantage Hagler had to get on the move to make that work, which made it a tougher task but he did it and when he tired Hagler is tough as hell and fit as a butchers dog so he could outwork Briscoe up close in much the way Valdez could.
I think Briscoe depended on his toughness and hoped Hagler would gas but this was a 35 year old Briscoe vs a 25 year old Hagler, that didn't seem the smartest strategy, Hagler had a little lull in the 4th and 5th before going back to work and at the end of the day, Briscoe needed a the engine to maintain that strategy. He rmdidn't really, which is why he maintained the forward movement without throwing the volume of shots he needed to make it effective.

I think Briscoe landed a few good shots in all of these fights because he is brave enough to always be in that range to give himself a chance but he never tested any of these guys.

I won't bother watching him fight the lower level guys, it's not going to really add to this story. On to the next fight.
 
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Davie

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No footage of the Roy Dale fight but it was a non-title affair.
The wiki extract tells us he learned his brother got murdered in the build up and he still went and did his job. How often do we hear of fights getting tragic news in the build up to fights and still go and do their job.

I terms of the fight, it mentions body shots getting the job done, he almost exclusively hit Briscoe to the head and I often think Monzon should switch up and down as he is a good body puncher at range.

Carlos Monzon vs. Roy Dale
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Carlos Monzon 164 lbs beat Roy Dale161 lbs by KO at 2:40 in round 5 of 10
  • Date: 1973-05-05
  • Location: Palazzetto dello Sport, Roma, Lazio, Italy
  • "World middleweight champion Carlos Monzon of Argentina scored a 5th round knockout over American Roy Dale of Cincinnati in a non-title fight at the Rome Sports Palace Saturday night. Monzon pounded Dale with a series of right and left hooks to the body and head, dropping him in the middle of their scheduled 10 round fight. Monzon used a series of body blows to the stomach, chest and ribs to send Dale to the ropes in the 2nd round and kept up the pressure until a hook to the chin sent Dale to the canvas in the 5th." -United Press International
    • This bout was billed as a tuneup for Monzon's June 2nd title defense against Emile Griffith in Monte Carlo.
    • Only hours earlier at the weigh-in, Monzon was told his older brother Zacarias was shot and killed in Santa Fe, Argentina the day before.
 

Davie

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Jose Napoles

Monzons next two fights after Roy Dale were the second legs of the Griffith and Bouttier rivalries, which I've covered, so it is on to Escopeta vs Mantequilla, undoubtedly the finest middleweight of the day against the very best welterweight of the time and a legit ATG.
The question again is, is this a great win or a case of picking a smaller man at close to 34? Napoles had never stepped up to middleweight and would enter the ring 5' 7.5" and 153lbs.

I'll try and watch a few fights either side to gauge where he's at. The Griffith bout tells us he is the man at welterweight and in 1969 he was excellent. 1970 he dropped his titles on cuts to Billy Backus before stopping him to regain them. 5 defences in 71 including a win over Hedgemon Lewis. 72 and 73 he defended 3 times each, so active still but I don't know what level those opponents were at.
I'll see what I can find.
 
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