Getting to know Carlos Monzon
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Davie
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Minter vs Licata
1. 10-9 Minter. Decent opener, Licata the more mobile, Minter looks solid and compact. Close round, could go either way
2. 10-8 Minter. Licata far too easy to hit, says a lot about the 51 fight unbeaten run. Apparently he went toe to toe with Monzon, using this to conpare, I think it might be a slaughter
3. 10-8 Minter. That's two clear knockdowns and the ref hasn't counted, not indecated anything. What is he doing. Minter landing hard the the body hard combinations of hooks upstairs and the right left one two is doing the real damage.
5. 10-9 Minter. Quieter round. The commentator reckons Monzon has knocked the fight out of Licata. Makes sense because he is poor here.
6. TKO. That refs has had a mare here. Minter hits him a cracker, he falls onto Minters shoulder. Minter pushes him of against the ropes and lands 4 hard shots, at no point during this are Licatas legs holding him up. As he starts to sag, the ref steps in, counts to 4, doesnt look at him, waves it back on and Licata collapses in Minters arms and THEN the ref waves it off. Shambolics.
I don't think it is, but if this was in anyway indicative of how he fought against Monzon, he shouldn't have been in the ring at that level.
If the punishment meted out by Monzon did this to a 25 year olds career, chances are he probably shouldn't have been in the ring at that level.
He was a whole level below Minter.
1. 10-9 Minter. Decent opener, Licata the more mobile, Minter looks solid and compact. Close round, could go either way
2. 10-8 Minter. Licata far too easy to hit, says a lot about the 51 fight unbeaten run. Apparently he went toe to toe with Monzon, using this to conpare, I think it might be a slaughter
3. 10-8 Minter. That's two clear knockdowns and the ref hasn't counted, not indecated anything. What is he doing. Minter landing hard the the body hard combinations of hooks upstairs and the right left one two is doing the real damage.
5. 10-9 Minter. Quieter round. The commentator reckons Monzon has knocked the fight out of Licata. Makes sense because he is poor here.
6. TKO. That refs has had a mare here. Minter hits him a cracker, he falls onto Minters shoulder. Minter pushes him of against the ropes and lands 4 hard shots, at no point during this are Licatas legs holding him up. As he starts to sag, the ref steps in, counts to 4, doesnt look at him, waves it back on and Licata collapses in Minters arms and THEN the ref waves it off. Shambolics.
I don't think it is, but if this was in anyway indicative of how he fought against Monzon, he shouldn't have been in the ring at that level.
If the punishment meted out by Monzon did this to a 25 year olds career, chances are he probably shouldn't have been in the ring at that level.
He was a whole level below Minter.
Davie
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1. 10-9 Monzon. Calm with the jab and waiting for the chance to throw the right, then takes it when it presents itself
2. 10-9 Monzon. Picking Licata apart here. Hurt him a couple times. The left hook at the end of the combinations particularly effective again in this fight
3. 10-9 Monzon. Letting go two handed, starting to the body and working better than I've seen him do
4. 10-9 Monzon. A reasonably straight forward performance here. If anything he's becoming a little complacent as he gets caught with a left hook late. But fairly dominant throughout. The commentator picked up on the half speed punches. Think he has slowed more than he already was but still lands regularly.
5. 10-9 Monzon. This is as ugly a performance as I've seen from him, the time out of the ring hasn't been kind, this is crude but he does absolutely bludgeon Licata here with clubbing shots for the first 2 minutes
6. 10-9 Monzon. Last round he was ugly but effective. This round was just awful, he looks horribly tired here. Licata putting up little resistance though
7. 9-10 Licata. Monzon looks absolutely shattered here. Licata has recovered and has a spring in his step. Still a close round but Licata scores one cracking right hand
8. 10-8 Monzon. Round was swinging back and forth as Monzon found bursts of energy. With about 30 seconds left he thumps him with a right hand that puts him over. Monzon tries desperately to finish it up to the bell
9. 10-9 Monzon. He keeps forcing out punches and Licata can't surely take much more of this. The question would be how much longer can Monzon keep dishing it out.
10.TKO Monzon. He looked a bit fresher coming i to this one. He eventually puts his man down and this time he has a minute to finish it. The end comes after Monzon lands maybe 4 or 5 flush shots on a defenceless barely conscious Licata.
89-81 going into the 10th. 6th and 7th were close and Licata was doing ok in the 8th before going down.
Monzon was really poor in that middle section of the fight, desperately tired before getting a bit of a second wind.
He looks crude as hell and there is no finesse about this performance.
The lay off and spell as an actor must have affected him. I would imagine with his age, many at this point would have been predicting his decline and would be baking Valdez to beat this version.
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Davie
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Gratien Tonna
There is no other footage of Tonna. But looking at his career. He lost to Jorge Fernandes in 72, went on a 15 fight winning streak before Rodrigo Valdez knocked him out in 11, he then beat Kevin Finnegan prior to facing Monzon.
Shame, as those 3 fights I mentioned would have been a very good gauge of where he was at middleweight.
Anyway, here's Monzon
There is no other footage of Tonna. But looking at his career. He lost to Jorge Fernandes in 72, went on a 15 fight winning streak before Rodrigo Valdez knocked him out in 11, he then beat Kevin Finnegan prior to facing Monzon.
Shame, as those 3 fights I mentioned would have been a very good gauge of where he was at middleweight.
Anyway, here's Monzon
Davie
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Carlos Monzon vs Gratien Tonna
1. 9-10 Tonna. Coming forward with good head movement and swinging wide shots with varied success but he takes the opener for me
2. 10-9 Monzon. Tonna having similar success at the start of the round but something changes and he stops coming forward and throwing halfway through the round. Monzon starts teeing off one twos and Tonna starts giving him lits of space
3. 10-9 Monzon. Inviting Tonna on now and catching him a fair bit, Tonna keeps coming, keeps pressing and throwing but Monzon uses the ropes brilliantly to lean away from shots.
4. 10-9 Monzon. Still moving back, leaning back, forcing Tonna to try and bridge the gap and Monzon picks him off trying to do so. His sharpness is back and he's much more accurate thT he was against Licata.
5. KO Monzon. Well that is a little disappointing. You see Monzon trying to time that one big shot, really loading the left hook when Tonna comes in. Really aiming through the target with the long right hand, I thought it was shaping up for a spectacular finish.
In the end, he kind of turns him with a left then catches him on the back of the head with a right. Tonna goes down and doesn't try to beat the count, claiming a foul. He might be right but what a disappointing end.
Monzon looked better here, but didn't get dragged over the half way mark to see how he might fade this time. But after 6 more months of presumably living the life and training right he looked sharper.
That bobbing and weaving style looked like it might be effective against him here, Tonna was able to use it to get into range in the first round and a half. Not sure if something catches him but the tempo quickly changes.
Tactically, I wondered if Monzon might use the physicality to try to push Tonna back and take the play away from him but he just seemed to back up more, using that distance to walk him into traps. Both countering as he came off and picking him off at distance with the long straight shots when he didn't. Noticed that rope a dope style leaning on the ropes in each of the last two fights again. And again, great use of the arms outstretched to protect from wide and looping shots.
1. 9-10 Tonna. Coming forward with good head movement and swinging wide shots with varied success but he takes the opener for me
2. 10-9 Monzon. Tonna having similar success at the start of the round but something changes and he stops coming forward and throwing halfway through the round. Monzon starts teeing off one twos and Tonna starts giving him lits of space
3. 10-9 Monzon. Inviting Tonna on now and catching him a fair bit, Tonna keeps coming, keeps pressing and throwing but Monzon uses the ropes brilliantly to lean away from shots.
4. 10-9 Monzon. Still moving back, leaning back, forcing Tonna to try and bridge the gap and Monzon picks him off trying to do so. His sharpness is back and he's much more accurate thT he was against Licata.
5. KO Monzon. Well that is a little disappointing. You see Monzon trying to time that one big shot, really loading the left hook when Tonna comes in. Really aiming through the target with the long right hand, I thought it was shaping up for a spectacular finish.
In the end, he kind of turns him with a left then catches him on the back of the head with a right. Tonna goes down and doesn't try to beat the count, claiming a foul. He might be right but what a disappointing end.
Monzon looked better here, but didn't get dragged over the half way mark to see how he might fade this time. But after 6 more months of presumably living the life and training right he looked sharper.
That bobbing and weaving style looked like it might be effective against him here, Tonna was able to use it to get into range in the first round and a half. Not sure if something catches him but the tempo quickly changes.
Tactically, I wondered if Monzon might use the physicality to try to push Tonna back and take the play away from him but he just seemed to back up more, using that distance to walk him into traps. Both countering as he came off and picking him off at distance with the long straight shots when he didn't. Noticed that rope a dope style leaning on the ropes in each of the last two fights again. And again, great use of the arms outstretched to protect from wide and looping shots.
Davie
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I think there was one fight where the commentary mention him having to run off a bit after a failed initial weigh in.
Looking at his boxrec he always weighs in between 159 and 160. Cuts in fine everytime so it isn't inconceivable he weighed in over a few times and had to get in the sauna for a bit.
His non title fights he was usually 162, not sure if you can read much into that.
Davie
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Rodrigo Valdez
These must be his big wins, I have been very impressed with Valdez from what I saw against Briscoe.
I've watched the Monzon fights before but I will get as much footage as I can and really get a feel for him and then watch the Monzon vs Valdez fights again.
To Youtube I go.
These must be his big wins, I have been very impressed with Valdez from what I saw against Briscoe.
I've watched the Monzon fights before but I will get as much footage as I can and really get a feel for him and then watch the Monzon vs Valdez fights again.
To Youtube I go.
Davie
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We then have a footage drought. From there he fights 21 times.
There is no footage for 20 of them including the first Briscoe fight.
The only footage is the rematch with Briscoe for the vacant title, which I watched.
Pretty crazy when he defended the title against Tonna, Mendez, Robles and Cohen on the way to the Monzon fight.
You'd have thought someone might have held on to some film for Davie here.
There is no footage for 20 of them including the first Briscoe fight.
The only footage is the rematch with Briscoe for the vacant title, which I watched.
Pretty crazy when he defended the title against Tonna, Mendez, Robles and Cohen on the way to the Monzon fight.
You'd have thought someone might have held on to some film for Davie here.
Davie
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Only a minute and a half of each round here so no unofficial score cards from Davie.
1-4. Palladin moving back initially but abandons that strategy half way through the second. But he makes the aggression pay in the third, for me he took the odd numbered rounds on the footage available. Valdez still powerful, heavy handed and busy. Plods forward early and Lacks the thought inside he shows against Briscoe. All round much less finesse and accuracy from Valdez but I thought he won what I saw of two and four
5-7 Valdez busy to the body in 5, takes a round off in 6 and eats a lot of jabs. 7 was close, both worked hard up to the last will call it even
8-10 they both empty the tank in the closing rounds, slugging it out. Palladin does surprisingly well inside. The 8th is too close, the 9th I gave that portion to Palladin and I think maybe just the 10th as well.
50% of every round isn't enough to score a fight but Palladin getting the nod here isn't unbelievable.
Valdez didn't look the fighter of the Briscoe fight.
The physicality and the doggedness but lacked the class, the intelligence that he must pick up in the next 4 years experience and the defence.
Palladin lost to mid level fighters right after this and I'd bet my house on Briscoe beating him. This isn't a good introduction to Valdez
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Fantastic thread. The two words that come to mind though when watching these videos - tracking button. Or wheel.
Davie
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1. 10-9 Valdes. Looking much better here, on the back foot drawing Leite in, using great head movement and springing traps. Leite gets through with a couple late.
2. 10-9 Valdes, comes out more aggressive this round, meeting him in the middle. Lovely the way he rolls with shots inside, delivering hard hooks, going body to head. Got those uppercuts going that we saw in Briscoe fight too
3. 10-9 Valdes staying outside early making him fall short and moving in to land his own. Goes toe to toe last minute and both land significant shots. Leite qill be happier with this round
4. 10-9 Valdes. Killed this round really, just worked the jab and slipping most of Leite's heavier shots. 1 piece of class from Valdes landing a 3 shot volley coming off the ropes late on.
5.10-9 Valdes after a round off he comes out rolling the head and turning in hard hooked shots, almost Floyd Patterson like. Might be interesting seeing how that works against the taller rangier man
6. 10-9 Valdes. I haven't mentioned his counter punching much but everything he does comes off the opponents lead. Monzon leads a lot, but he has a nice defence for counter punching too..
7. 10-9 Valdes. He's looks class here and just continued what he was doing well earlier, looks very comfortable.
Boxrec tells me this was stopped on cuts in the 4th. Something is wrong.
Regardless, this is more like the Valdes I watched before and in the Briscoe fights.
Will chalk the Palladin fight off as a piss poor performance, as I don't think that was a lack of experience, he just wasn't at the races that day
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Davie
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1. 10-9 Valdez. Cassidy throwing a decent amount but catching gloves or air as Valdez rolls under, goes to the body and moves upstair.
This is terrible footage, decent picture and colour but it is about 2 frames per second
2. 10-9 Valdez. Scrappy round, faur bit of missing by both. Valdez starting low and trying to spring in with shots straight to the head. Better starting in about the ribs first.
3. 9-10 Cassidy. He ended the 2nd with a good combo and opens up here with a couple. Valdez gets tired chasing and start swinging wildly, Cassidy fires back, clobbering him with the south paw left hook, he clubs fuck out if him with it
4. 10-9 Valdez. Very close round, both landing good shots. Could make an argument for Cassidy winning the last 3
5. 9-10 Cassidy. Another close round, started a boxing match, turned to a slug fest for a spell, back to boxing then slugging again. So hard to score the quick close exchanges with this footage
6. 10-9 Valdez. He goes for it here and really lets his hands go. As the round wears on, Cassidy starts coming to him as he tires, which doesn't work either, Cassidy has had all of his recent success backing up
7. TKO Valdez. He comes out hard and fast again, swinging left hook, right upper cut over and over. Cassidy taking some punishment but didn't look to me like he was beaten but the ref would have had a far better view than this footage.
Well in the first 3 bits of footage he's been up and down in form but he did show the talent was there against Leite.
But it isn't so much the ability and physicality I'd worry about, he showed all of that in spades against Brisco. This guy was as close to a Monzon style as I've seen, not in the same league but tall, rangey, worked well edging back and jabbing. It looked like Valdez movement was going to be the key in the first round but when Cassidy started backing off, Valdez struggled to make up the distance, you get a feeling if they met at this point Monzon would have boxed his ears off. But in saying that Valdez certainly seems someone who doesn't bring his A game when it isn't against an A level opponent, so this was maybe just a poor performance more than anything else.
Got the job done I suppose
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Davie
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1. 10-9 Monzon. Pumping out the jab, firing it at cheat height at times, not giving him the chance to go under. Couple fast one-twos like a prime second career George Foreman
2. 10-9 Monzon. Cautious, still scoring the jab, moving away from Valdez as he attacks. Looks slow but Valdez doesn't look as sharp as he did
3. 10-9 Monzon, It's all Carlos, he's starting to throw the right more, and it's surprising how often he lands it with such slow hands, combinations too. So good at judging when he can and can't get away with throwing it
4. 9-10 Valdez. Maybe being generous here but covered up well and caught a lot on the gloves, moved his head well. Only a couple of forays of his own but I think he scored a few decent shots
5. 10-9 Monzon. Another close one here, Valdez having to gamble and lunge a little to get shots off and as a result I'm not sure he is landing a lot of them effectively.
6. 10-9 Monzon. Slow start to the round, quite a bit missing but Monzon grows as the round wears on, landing some nice straight solid shots
7. 10-9 Monzon. Steady away for Carlos, just keeps moving the hands in this round, nothing spectacular, landing a decent number of firm shots. Valdez struggling to land clean, Monzon riding the shots so well, his head movement like his hands, not quick but times the movement very well.
8. 9-10 Valdez. Seems to hurt him early with a good right, Monzons head clears quickly and he grabs for time. Valdez struggles to back it up, again a result of Carlos head movement. Monzon comes back and lands some decent shots, almost tempted to award him the round
9. 10-9 Monzon. Jabs well, manages things well on the back foot and leaning out of range, he makes fights so difficult for shorter fighters to get to him
10. 10-9 Monzon. Valdez looking tired and being narrowly outboxed. He did land some decent bodyshots but it looks thrown out of frustration at not being able to land upstairs as anything else.
11. 10-9 Monzon. Lands a lot of head shots here. Valdez tired, keeps swinging though and gets some body work in again but eats a lot of straight shots and uppercut now. Monzon not missing with much now, even if not 100% flush, plenty moving Valdez head.
12. 9-10 Valdez. That was a better round from him, there was a spring in his step, he was bobbing and weaving inside, springing in with hooks, feinting the left to the body and firing the right hook to the head. He needed that round and needs to keep that up
13. Jumps straight into round 14. Went back and checked and there's about 5.30 of footage without a break, but it freezes a little in the middle. I could try and watch it again and split it but I don't think it matters much on my card.
14. 10-8 Monzon. Valdez starts brightly, but he is getting desperate and reaching and gambling. Monzon starts stepping back and teeing him up and after a few nicely placed shots, he walks Valdez onto a right. You feel for Valdez who has been rolling the dice late in the fight.
15. 10-9 Monzon. Valdez still going for it, despite almost getting put through the ropes last round, Monzon looks content to see the round out with a lead on the cards, but he seems to up get to work in the second half of the round, not sure Monzon is ever comfortable not working in a round. You could score this one either way.
146*-138 Monzon
* assuming I would have given Valdez the 13th.
Monzon, deals with arguably his best opponent in reasonably comfortable fashion. As ever, nothing dazzling or flash, he boxes well to a plan negates almost everything his opponent does well and works away consistently and never seems rushed or phased by anything, content to do his own thing.
It looked as if the already fairly slow Monzon had lost a little pace here but he is so very accurate punching and manages distance as well as any fighter I've ever seen. His head work was tidy here too, the fact that he doesn't look slick means I don't look for it but he rolled with so many of those hooked shots from Valdez in this one it was really noticeable.
A very good boxing display against a very good opponent
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