Getting to know Carlos Monzon

[Davie]

Ok folks, time for Davie to go for another project.

I've been throwing some ideas around in my head since the end of the 85-95 middleweight thread. Do I go for another era in a particular weight class?
I toyed with the 80's lightweights around the Chacon, Mancini, Limon, Boza era. It would have had some great battles in there.
Toyed with delving into the heavyweights on the fringes of the Ali/Frazier/Foreman era, just following the contenders, not the fights we all know.

Do I focus on a fighter.
I settled on the idea of something @Bogotazo suggested a couple months back, looking at a fighter by analysing his 5 best opponents and their own 5 biggest fights.
30 fight and it's all done, sounds easy, but once you delve into history you struggle to hit the exact numbers there, some you can't get enough fights, some fighters you wouldn't do justice limiting to 5.

I juggled some names, the brief career of Salvador Sanchez, @Flea Mans top bantam Ruben Olivares, maybe try to figure out how good Bob Foster really was?
The I settled on King Carlos Monzon. I did a little research a few years back, just watching a hand full of fights and went from rating Monzon 4th ATG middleweight to now considering him probably no1 and i decided to back that up by looking at not only him but weighing up his opposition by trying to watch them in their biggest bouts around that era.

I've not fully fleshed out the idea but I have some YouTube vids looked out and started to put together a timeline. I'll quickly lay the foundations of how the MW title found it's way from Fullmer to Dick Tiger via Joey Giardello and eventually into the rivalry of Emile Griffith and Nino Benvenuti.
From there I'll change tack slightly, not following the title but putting meat on the bones of the careers of those who faced King Carlos, afer all he basically dominated the middleweight scene for a good number of years, and where better to start than Griffith and Benvenuti. I'll probably struggle to stick to a chronological order, but I'll do my best.
Hopefully I'll end with another 20+ pager, rounding up with Monzon vs Rodrigo Valdez. Which takes me to not a million miles from Hagler who served as the starting point for my last project.

In essence this will be pretty much Davies 65-75 middleweight thread but with a slightly different twist (and some fucking honking footage)
Enjoy.

 

[Davie]

Still work to be done, but that's a starter.
Finding footage of Moyer and Bouttier frustrated me to the point I thought, fuck it, I'll finish this tomorrow.

 

[Davie]

So, the middleweight title.
We had the "World middleweight title" and the "National boxing association world middleweight title."
Both had been held by Sugar Ray Robinson and Carmen Basillio.
The first ended in the hands of Paul Pender and retired with him, which makes it easy to track who is in charge.
The other landed in the hands of Gene Fullmer.
Since 57, Fullmer had won and lost the title to Sugar Ray Robinson, then went on a 17 fight unbeaten run lifting the title from Carmen Basillio, defending it against him before a draw and another win over Robinson. He fought some other very good fighters along the way and by 1962 he was firmly established as the no1 middleweight in the world and surely both lineal and undisputed champion.

That's when he ran into the battering ram that is Dick Tiger

Here's 10 minutes of footage from Dick Tigers wide UD win over Fullmer

 

[Davie]

Dick Tiger vs Gene Fullmer 1

1. Fullmer boxed well for a noted aggressive brawler.

*rounds 2-4 scored evenly? Apparently Tiger is slightly ahead on points.*

5. Tiger wins this pressing with his movement. Although applying pressure he isn't leading off often, he tends to wait till Fullmer lets shots go to throw a volley of his own before going back to stalking.

*rounds 6-11 very evenly fought again. However Tiger is definitely ahead and the stronger of the two*

12. Tigers round. Fullmer trying to spring in with quick shots but seems to lack the quickness and the accuracy. Tiger pressing and looks the fresher man despite actually being the older of the two and no spring chicken at 33 (sure Fullmer is 29, in spite of the commentator saying there is 2 years between them)

*rounds 13 and 14 were given to Tiger*

15. Fullmer was a close round, I think I'd give it to Fullmer for pouring it on trying to win in in the last.

I'd have liked to have seen the full fight, it looked competitive and hard fought, both men had aggressive styles and they were both giving plenty at the final bell.

So the title goes to Dick Tiger, an undisputed champion for an African fighter. A first?

Anyway there's two more of these before I move on

 

[Davie]

Tiger and Gene fought to a 15 round draw 4 months later in 1963.

Before Tiger stopped Fullmer in 7, retiring Fullmer and confirming himself as the undisputed champion.

 

[Tom Cruise]

Looking forward to getting stuck into this @Davie.

 

[Tom Cruise]

This is a great idea for looking at a fighters career.

 

[Davie]

Looking forward to getting stuck into this @Davie.

I've been mulling it over for a while.

I'd like to eventually work through all the ideas in the OP. I love the 365, but keeping up with that has put me off and I prefer the idea of studying something like this. Following a theme and really getting to know something.

This will be hard work, because it's going to involve some grainy shit footage and unlike 365, you can't guarantee action packed fights most days. But i'll persevere.

 

[Davie]

This is a great idea for looking at a fighters career.

@Bogotazo planted the seed

But so many of these debates, about how good someone was drifts into where their opponent was in their respective career, too old, too inexperienced, coming off a bad loss, stepping up in weight.
Putting it together like this gives you a better insight, after that 85-95 thread I felt a lot more confident in saying Toney, McCallum and Kalambay really were top class fighter. Because I didn't just watch them fight or look at their careers, I'd watched the recent performances of their opponents, like you would watching a current fighters career unfold and it added context each result.

 

[Davie]

Tiger vs Fullmer II

We only get the first and last round here and they both look like they were fought at the same pace. Fullmer jabbing and circling looking for an opening to throw single power shots. Tiger starting each round quite and coming on strong late. The crowd don't seem happy at the draw but when are they ever. But there wasn't noticeably louder boos for either card, so it's hard to tell who they thought won.
Unlike the first, I'm not disappointed they didn't have all 15 rounds of footage.

Tiger vs Fullmer III

This one was in Nigeria and it seemed to give Tiger some added impetus, he pressed forward virtually the entire fight, let his hands go consistently and I barely made a case for Fullmer winning a round.
Fullmer tried to fight the way he had previously but Tiger would not be denied and laid it on Gene until he quit.

So we knew Fullmer was the man that beat the man. Which makes Tiger definitely the man who beat the man who beat the man.
We move on now to find the man who beat the man who beat the man who beat the man.

 

[Tom Cruise]

Watching these, I dont think Fullmer ever quite came to terms with Tigers tenacity, skill and power when the fight got close. When it came to exchanging, Tiger generally looks like he gets the better of it. His chin is more tucked away and a more difficult target, he punches more fluidly in combination, and his countering ability while in range is brilliant. Fullmer has always been able to bully his opponents up close when he needed to, but Dick never let him have that luxury.

What Fullmer was able to do to great effect in the second drawn bout was use his underrated boxing ability, his horrible jerky rhythm and world class jab to keep the fight long, and keep the Tiger at bay, at least in the rounds we have available. He was able to use that style to great effect when he comfortably outboxed (and beat up) Basilio, who, while not a natural MW, gave SRR hell over 30 rounds previously.

The 3rd fight is a terrible beating over the last few rounds especially. Fullmer looks noticeably more lethargic on his feet, but he must be one of the hardest men ever, the punches he took in that are preposterous. Without wanting to bring every historical thread back to SRR, the fact he one punch kayoad this guy almost beggars belief.

 

[Davie]

In 59, Dick Tiger had exchanged 2 x UD 10 round fights with a very good boxer with a resume as long as your arm, in Joey Giardello, he'd been fighting at a consistently high level right through the 50's and faced every contender going.

In 1963, they met again for a 3rd time over 15 for the undisputed middleweight championship of the world. Giardello won an 8 rounds to 5 points decision to lift the title.

After winning the title, he picked up two non title wins over 10 rounds against Juan Carlos Rivera before defending his title against Ruben Hurricane Carter, a fight he won by points decision. I'll be interested to see how fair this result is, as Giardello sued the makers of the film "Hurricane" over the depiction of a false decision inspired by racist judges.

Joey Giardello would rematch Tiger for a 4th and final fight in 1965, losing his title to the persistent little Nigerian.

 

[Davie]

Tiger vs Giardello 1

Fullmer tried to box Tiger but he was noted as a brawler type aggressive. As @Tom Cruise said, Fullmer had boxing ability but it was not his natural default approach to a fight. I suspect the first fight we are going to see here, a win for Giardello, we might see the difference when a natural boxer gets in there with Tiger

1. Giardello. The commentator says Joey is a "master boxer" and you can see he is very comfortable timing his jab well to stop Tigers advance, he pops out one-twos and steps out of range and when he can't get out of range, he ties Tiger up, where Fullmer would have exchanged.

*round 2 apparently taken by JG too

3. Giardello, Same again, boxing well, moving constantly to his left and working with the jab, when Tiger moves forward he moves back and sticks the jab in his face. Conservative with his use of the right but it lands when he lets it go, good performance so far

4. Giardello with an excellent boxing display so far. Tiger stopped coming forward as much here, trying to counter Giardello but finding it very difficult. Giardello, the taller man, judging the distance well and not giving the chance to fire back.

# Giardello. Not sure what number round that was but Giardello still moving, still restricting Tiger to very few clean shots and still picking his punches very cleverly. Fair play, he lets his hands go when an opportunity presents and on the one ocasion he finds himself against the ropes he trades well with Tiger probably getting the better of that trade as well

9. Giardello, similar pattern with both men still looking fresh and moving freely. Tiger now resorting to lunging and leaping in with shots to get to Giardello. I'd be expecting Tiger to start having some effect some time soon, he can't have won many of these and he gets 5 rounds off the ref, can only imagine he fines some success as they fade late

10. Giardello. Same story different round. Frustrating for Tiger here, looks devoid of ideas

11. Giardello, won the bulk of the round but some glimmers of hope for Tiger, caught him early i the round then towards the end, caught him coming i on a couple of occasions when Giardello got too ambitious. Tiger moving into range without throwing punches too often though and still taking more than he gives. Giardello's footwork is very good keeps the distance just right and make room for himself to keep him away from the ropes

12. Tiger. First roud I've given him. Closely contested round, Giardello still moving well but not so busy with his hands, Tiger able to get in and trade with Giardello and when he does he looks the stronger of the two, working the body too, something I'd have liked to have seen more from him earlier

13. Giardello, had Tiger narrowly ahead all round, with him landing the heavier shots, to Giardellos jabs. But Giardello got a couple of effective looking flurries in late to steal it for me, but only just

14. Giardello. Tiger started well again, got through a couple times but towards the back end of the round, Giardello moving slickly, showboating to an extent and making a mug of Tiger here. I've been disappointed with Tiger in this one, not had many answers to the problems posed by Joey

15. Giardello with another beautifully boxed round and this was a bit of an exhibition if I'm honest

I only watched 11 rounds and I found 10 to Joey. The commentator believed Joey won round 2 as well.
I struggle to see how the ref only gave Joey 8 rounds.

 

[Davie]

Joey Giardello vs Ruben Carter

This should be a good style match up. Giardello looked a very nice boxer and Carter is a fairly fearsome fighter.

1. 10-9 Giardello. An absolute pick-em round. Carter certainly looking explosive in the opening half, fast and powerful. Giardello settled in and started boxing neatly half way through. Both landed hard right hands towards the end.

2. 9-10 Carter another extremely close round. Possibly just the added snap on Carters shot making the difference.

3. 9-10 Carter. Had Carter ahead at the point he rocks Giardello with a right. Carter has a good go at trying to put him over but surprisingly after that Giardello does his best fighting of the night so far.

Gee, I could really go a beautiful Schmidt beer.

4. 9-10 Carter this is turning into a really good fight, Carter still setting a good pace and throwing with intent and Giardello clearly one of those boxers that can be drawn into a fight when hurt. Carter has a nice sharp left hook but is telegraphing his right badly, missed with it several times

5. 10-9 Giardello. Carter still showing plenty ambition and letting hard shots go but being made to miss. Giardellos movement is fantasic and he choose just the right shot so often, landed some lovely flush left hooks

6. 9-10 Carter. Good intensity again and when he lands he looks a hurtful puncher. Possibly just matched Giardello in shots landed.

7. 9-10 Carter. Started faster and still so fast and powerful but Giardello paces himself well through the round and finishes strong, landing some decent jabs and hooks late to make it hard to call

8. 10-9 Giardello, get the impression we are seeing a bit of 15 round management here by Giardello. Carter missing more and more here and Giardello working the body, landing some hard lefts to the ribs. He never throws that right hand unless he knows he's going to land it, and he's very accurate with it.

9. 9-10 Carter. Giardello landing jabs and the odd body punch. But Carters punches are vicious, the way he throws, he layunches single shot, a lot of hard hooks and right and he's getting to Giardello now

10. 9-10 Carter. Closer round this one but Carter still landing with more fast hard shots. Giardellos boxing was able to undon Tigers pressure but can't deal with Craters speed.

11. 10-9 Giardello. Better defensive round here and he made Carter miss a good bit, Carters lower output emphasises that fact. Giardello landed more shots but doesn't put anything on Carter that looks like worrying him at all

12. 10-10. Very close round. They exchanged single punches right through the round and everytime I had one edging ahead in the round the other lands a good shot

13. 10-9 Giardello. His best round for a bit. Jabbing and moving to make Carter miss, slipping and countering and starting to hurt Carter with those body shots

14. 9-10 Carter. Landing the hard head shots, Giardello still getting to Carters body with those solid lefts.

15. 10-9 Giardello, finished strongly in a close round.

142-144 Carter
Maybe the folk that made Hurricane were right to claim the judges were Klu Klux Klan members

Both boxers that moved well and sharp fast punchers. Both picked their shots well and the left hand probanly their best weapon

But Carter a quick powerful aggressive boxer puncher while Giardello more a defensive stylist. Giardellos style worked well against the slow steady pressure fighting of Tiger but against those quick hands, pouncing into range with single powerful shots, he struggled at times.

He did enough to keep himself in it on my card, so I can't massively argue with the scorecards and Giardello retains the middleweight titles.
But if truth be known I might have swung one or two of the close Giardello rounds to Carter to make it wider.

 

[Davie]

@Tom Cruise
Giardello had a hell of a lot of fights at a good level. How would he have sat in your middleweight rankings?

 

[Tom Cruise]

@Tom Cruise
Giardello had a hell of a lot of fights at a good level. How would he have sat in your middleweight rankings?

1. Sugar Ray Robinson: 15-10-2
2. Carlos Monzon: 13-0
3. Marvin Hagler: 13-2-1
4. Gene Fullmer: 11-4-3
5. Emile Griffith: 11-8
6. Bernard Hopkins: 11-3
7. Nino Benvenuti: 10-3
8. Joey Giardello: 10-6-1
9. Dick Tiger: 9-2-1
10. Jake Lamotta: 8-1-1
11. Holman Williams: 7-6-2-1
12. Sergio Martinez: 5-0
13. Tony Zale: 5-2
14. Gennady Golovkin: 5-1-1
15. Carl Olson: 5-4
16. Ken Overlin: 5-5-2
17. Freddie Steele: 5-2-1
18. Marcel Thil: 5-1
19. Mickey Walker: 5-1
20. Charley Burley: 5-3-0-1
21. Marcel Cerdan: 3-1

Or weighted...

1. Sugar Ray Robinson: 48
2. Carlos Monzon: 35
3. Marvin Hagler: 32
4. Gene Fullmer: 30
5. Emile Griffith: 26
6. Nino Benvenuti: 23
7. Dick Tiger: 22
8. Joey Giardello: 21
9. Bernard Hopkins: 20
10. Jake Lamotta: 17
11. Tony Zale: 14
12. Sergio Martinez: 13
13. Holman Williams: 11
14. Gennady Golovkin: 10
15. Carl Olson: 10
16. Ken Overlin: 10
17. Freddie Steele: 10
18. Mickey Walker: 9
19. Marcel Cerdan: 9
20. Marcel Thil: 8
21. Charley Burley: 6

So yeah pretty damn high!

Will catch up with these later, got a lazy Sunday planned

 

[Davie]

Never realised you'd done him already.
Maybe should have checked back before asking.

But yeah, Giardello was a really tidy boxer.

 

[Anorak]

Never realised you'd done him already.
Maybe should have checked back before asking.

But yeah, Giardello was a really tidy boxer.

Nobody mentioned that Giardello was outpointed over here by Terry Downes. And his best fights were in front of him at that point. Great win by Terry.

 

[Tom Cruise]

Interesting to see the contrast between Tigers 3rd fight with JG and Carters fight.

Both similar in style being big punching pressure fighters, but Carter with his looser looking guard, superior head movement and footspeed is able to consistently draw the lead from Giardello before stepping back and exploding with combos. He can also evade JG's counters more effectively and move himself into range more rapidly.

Tiger as a patient pressure fighter consistently found himself too far away or too close falling into a clinch, Carter didnt have those issues.

Be interesting to see what adjustments Tiger makes in 4th bout.

Edit: Also the jab of Carter is very effective for him closing the distance. Tiger too easily let Giardello win the battle of the jabs.

 

[Tom Cruise]

Really tough to see how Giardello wins this decision vs Carter tbh.

Also, horrendously biased commentary in favour of Joey G