Davie's 85-05 middleweight era thread

File:Bernard Hopkins vs. Jermain Taylor 1 (poster).jpg
  • Hopkins made $4 million and Taylor made $1.4 million.
  • The fight generated 370,000 pay-per-view buys and $17.5 million in PPV revenue.
  • Results of HBO's unofficial "Fight Night" scale: Hopkins 168 lbs, Taylor 171 lbs.
  • Taylor wins The Ring Magazine's World Middleweight Title.
  • The Associated Press reported: "Hopkins had won a record 20 consecutive defenses, but he started slowly and only got to Taylor late in the fight. By then, the undefeated challenger had built up a big enough lead on two judges' scorecards to take the crown."

Unofficial Scorecards​

  • Jerry Magee, San Diego Union-Tribune: 114-114 Draw
  • Dan Rafael, ESPN: 114-114 Draw
  • TheSweetScience.com: 117-111 Taylor
  • Harold Lederman, HBO: 115-113 Taylor
  • Kevin Iole, Las Vegas Review-Journal: 115-113 Hopkins
  • Max Kellerman, HBO: 115-113 Hopkins
  • Michael Katz, Reuters: 115-113 Hopkins
  • Paul Upham, SecondsOut.com: 115-113 Hopkins
  • Associated Press: 114-113 Hopkins
  • Ramiro Gonzalez, La Opinion: 116-112 Hopkins
  • Doug Fischer, MaxBoxing.com: 116-112 Hopkins
  • David Mayo, Grand Rapids Press: 116-112 Hopkins
  • Keith Idec, New Jersey Herald-News: 116-112 Hopkins
  • David Avila, Riverside Press Enterprise: 116-112 Hopkins
  • Tim Smith, New York Daily News: 116-112 Hopkins
  • Ron Borges,Boston Globe: 116-112 Hopkins
  • Joe Santoloquito, The Ring Magazine: 116-113 Hopkins
  • Robert Morales, Los Angeles Daily News: 117-111 Hopkins
  • Franklin McNeil, Newark Star-Ledger: 117-111 Hopkins
  • Steve Kim, MaxBoxing.com: 117-111 Hopkins
  • Ivan Goldman, The Ring Magazine: 117-111 Hopkins
Interesting withso many unoffical scorecards in favour of Bhop
 
I think this makes a good place to round off this thread, in 2005 with Hopkins losing to Taylor. Once I watch this, I will have viewed every available morsel of footage of Marvin Hagler, Carlos Monzon and Bernard Hopkins at the middle weight limit. As well as the majority of events and fights surrounding them for context.
No mean feat even if I do say so myself.
I'll get this wrapped up now with the Taylor fights
Good work , thanks for great thread :happy
 

Davie

**2020 OTH Poster of the Year**
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Interesting withso many unoffical scorecards in favour of Bhop

Well I have it 5-3 to Taylor after 8 rounds but Hopkins has grown into the fight and according to the report Hopkins comes on strong late.

If he wins the last 4 on my card, I'll probably give Bernard the win as well

Looking at these, it appears the fans are split almost 50/50 on Taylor/Hopkins and a good chunk go for the draw
I'll score the last 4 later on but the scorecards on there and the official judges scores all point to a Hopkins shutout in the later rounds

  • Referee: Jay Nady
  • Judge: Jerry Roth116-112
    1

    9
    10
    2

    9
    10
    3

    10
    9
    4

    10
    9
    5

    10
    9
    6

    9
    10
    7

    10
    9
    8

    9
    10
    9

    10
    9
    10

    10
    9
    11

    10
    9
    12

    10
    9
  • Judge: Duane Ford113-115
    1

    9
    10
    2

    9
    10
    3

    9
    10
    4

    10
    9
    5

    9
    10
    6

    9
    10
    7

    10
    9
    8

    9
    10
    9

    10
    9
    10

    10
    9
    11

    10
    9
    12

    9
    10
  • Judge: Paul Smith113-115
    1

    9
    10
    2

    9
    10
    3

    9
    10
    4

    9
    10
    5

    9
    10
    6

    9
    10
    7

    10
    9
    8

    9
    10
    9

    10
    9
    10

    10
    9
    11

    10
    9
    12

    10
    9
 

Davie

**2020 OTH Poster of the Year**
Country Flag
Scotland
Jermain Taylor vs Bernard Hopkins 2. 03/12/2005.
WBC, WBA super, IBF, WBO & Ring middleweight titles.


Jermain Taylor 159 lbs beat Bernard Hopkins 160 lbs by UD in round 12 of 12​

View attachment 33987

Bout Summary​

"Taylor had vowed not to chase Hopkins (46-4-1) around the ring in the early rounds like he did in the first fight, when he ran out of gas late and barely held on for the win. He kept to his word, much to the displeasure of the crowd at the Mandalay Bay hotel-casino that booed the lack of action in the first few rounds. Hopkins did even less in the early rounds, and it cost him the fight. One judge gave Taylor the first six rounds and the other two gave him five of the first six, putting Hopkins in a hole he could never recover from." (The Associated Press)




1. 10-9 Taylor. Close and very little of note to discuss. Taylor threw more and half landed a few shots. Bernard loses it on account of throwing next to nothing. Taylor showed all the ambition here.

2. 10-9 Taylor. Every shot from either man sees a response so everything happening in brief exchanges that I feel taylor gets the better of more often than not. Hopkins appears to be starting too far out, the work he has to do to get into range gives Taylor the chance to set himself

3. 10-9 Taylor. Bernard letting the early rounds slip away again by waiting to long and doing to much looking. Jermaine landed the jab a few times and let the right hand more often coming close with it.

4. 10-9 Taylor, Landing his jab, gets a couple left hooks as Hopkins comes in and he's starting to move bernard into shots, he';s figured out that when he double jabs Hopkins drops his head low to the right so Jermaine is going over the top with a chopping right hand. Needs to be more accurate with it but it's the right shot.

5. 10-10. Even Bernard gets going, scoring that accurate sneak right hand, why he's only thrown it for the first time in the 5th round I don't know but Taylor has no active head movement, so he's there for it. Taylor lands one good overhand late and both land a couple of left hands in a very very close round

6. 10-9 Taylor. Decent round and both involved in the action early with Taylor getting the slight better of the first minute, he then scores a cracking left jab and from there it is all Taylor, great defence making Hopkins miss with his attacks and scoring some nice shots and manipulating Hopkins position well, turns him round twice and ties him up well.

7. 9-10 Hopkins. Uses his head movement so much better to make Taylor miss, not sure Tasylor landed a meaningful shot and threw much less. Think I counted maybe 4 single shots landed but it was the control of the tempo of the round that will make Bernard happy with this one.

8. 9-10 Hopkins. Bernard doing that little bit more consistently. Bernard scores 2 or 3 decent shots, then Taylor lands one half connected. And that process repeats. Any close exchanges looked fairly even.

9. 9-10 Hopkins. Lampley called this perfectly, I had it level going into the last 30 seconds, Hoipkins twice lands the right hand off the one two to take the point

10. 9-10 Hopkins. I disagree with Ledermans comment that Bernard is only throwiung single shots. The last few round he has scored most of his shots on the one two or as mmultiple shots in an exchange in close.

11. 10-9 Taylor. Scores a big first minute in this round then probably just edges the remainder of the action. A big round for Jermaine and I didn't see that coming as it looked as though Hopkins was drifting towards a very narrow victory on my card but that is the 6th I've scored for Jermaine, with one even then Bernard would need at least a knockdown in the final round to sneak a win

12. 9-10 Hopkins. Probably the best round of their two fights. Hopkins wobbles him with a left hook early. From there we see a number of good inside fighting and heavy two handed exchanges, with Taylor being made to miss most of his big shots up until a good combination in the dying seconds. Hopkins throws caution to the wind, certainly by his standards

115-114 Jermaine Taylor The refs all gave it one wider, presumably without the even round.
 
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Davie

**2020 OTH Poster of the Year**
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Well, that brings an end to Bernard Hopkins middleweight days and I have to say I enjoyed it more than I suspected I would. Having been accustomed top his light heavyweight days, I thought I was in for a snoozefest but there was plenty to enjoy and discuss.
First off, he was just a supremely talented fighter, I never doubted that for one second, knowing his record and having seen what he could do stretching all the way until he was almost 50 years of age. But early in the reign he was a dominant aggressive fighter that wore you down while being exceptionally hard to pin down and hit clean. As I viewed the latter days of that 160lb reign he slowed down, became more measured and more cautious, leaning on all that experience and really utilising that inate ability to not get hit. But those fights were still intruiging and even with a lake of ral action, they still had you on the edge of the seat whether the action was finely poinsed on a close decision or whether he was old manning a guy that just wasn't on his level.

What really impressed was some of the physical attributes he could still display at 40 years of age. The quickness of his reflexes were tremendous, yes the boxing brain was off the chart but you require the physical reaction times to evade shots like that, his hand speed might not have been blurring but his ability to get his right hand to your chin, covering the distance from the outside without you seeing it coming was extraordinary.
His engine had to be appreciated. Yes it came about as a result of being conservative with his output early, but he was able to make opponents work less as well, yet they just couldn't live with him in the back end of a fight once he got in his rhythm, the last 6 rounds are where a 40 year old should be toiling against a young athlete like Jermaine Taylor.

Bernard Hopkins was a special fighter and incredible hard to beat. Having watched all of Hagler and Monzon it is hard to rank this guy too far behind them. I always had his resume not far off the top guys but never ranked him in a head 2 head sense. But I think the Hopkins that went through Holmes, Trinidad and Joppy would give any of them a brutally hard nights work and run for their money, much in the way I see Mike McCallum.

Bernard would of course go on to acheive remarkable things at 175lb. Remarkable both in terms of the age he acheived them but also dealing with bigger men. Some of those fights would be dull but some were great, like the Pascal win.

I'm glad I did extend this thread now. But I think that will just about do it.
 

Davie

**2020 OTH Poster of the Year**
Country Flag
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Jermain Taylor Began splitting up the titles with the second Hopkins fight, presumably dropping the IBF to fight the rematch rather than a mandatory. Arthur Abraham would win the vacant title and defend it 10 times before vacting it to go up to 168 to beat taylor himself. Sebastian Sylvester would keep it in Germany for a couple more years after that picking up the vacant title defending it 4 times before eventually losing it to Australian Damniel Geale

Jermain vacted the WBA super in his next fight to face Winky Wright in a drawn defence of the WBO and WBC. The super title would remain vacant for 5 years. Felix Sturm would take the WBA regular title, lose it to Javier Castillejo before taking it back off him and defending it 7 times before being elevated to super champion for absolutely no good reason other than to duck Gennady Golovkin and free up the regular title for the dangerou Kazakh. He'd defend the super title 5 time including two close fights with British fighters before Daniel Geale toom another middleweight title from German shores.

Jermain would retain the WBC and WBO titles through his draw with Winky Wright, defend it successfully twice beating Kassim Ouma and Cory Spinks on the card before losing them to Kelly Pavlik by 7th round TKO.
Pavlik was allowed to face Taylor a second time in a non-title catch weight fight at 164, beating him again before defending his two 160lb titles against Gary Lockett beating him by stoppage in 3. He again headed north, this time to 170lb to take a schooling from Bernard Hopkins as the old master once again showed his dominance over the middleweight division he ruled for so many years.
Pavlik was allowed to retain his titles again and returned with two stoppage wins over Marco Antonion Rubio and Miguel Angel Espino before losing a UD to Sergio Martinez
 
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Well, that brings an end to Bernard Hopkins middleweight days and I have to say I enjoyed it more than I suspected I would. Having been accustomed top his light heavyweight days, I thought I was in for a snoozefest but there was plenty to enjoy and discuss.
First off, he was just a supremely talented fighter, I never doubted that for one second, knowing his record and having seen what he could do stretching all the way until he was almost 50 years of age. But early in the reign he was a dominant aggressive fighter that wore you down while being exceptionally hard to pin down and hit clean. As I viewed the latter days of that 160lb reign he slowed down, became more measured and more cautious, leaning on all that experience and really utilising that inate ability to not get hit. But those fights were still intruiging and even with a lake of ral action, they still had you on the edge of the seat whether the action was finely poinsed on a close decision or whether he was old manning a guy that just wasn't on his level.

What really impressed was some of the physical attributes he could still display at 40 years of age. The quickness of his reflexes were tremendous, yes the boxing brain was off the chart but you require the physical reaction times to evade shots like that, his hand speed might not have been blurring but his ability to get his right hand to your chin, covering the distance from the outside without you seeing it coming was extraordinary.
His engine had to be appreciated. Yes it came about as a result of being conservative with his output early, but he was able to make opponents work less as well, yet they just couldn't live with him in the back end of a fight once he got in his rhythm, the last 6 rounds are where a 40 year old should be toiling against a young athlete like Jermaine Taylor.

Bernard Hopkins was a special fighter and incredible hard to beat. Having watched all of Hagler and Monzon it is hard to rank this guy too far behind them. I always had his resume not far off the top guys but never ranked him in a head 2 head sense. But I think the Hopkins that went through Holmes, Trinidad and Joppy would give any of them a brutally hard nights work and run for their money, much in the way I see Mike McCallum.

Bernard would of course go on to acheive remarkable things at 175lb. Remarkable both in terms of the age he acheived them but also dealing with bigger men. Some of those fights would be dull but some were great, like the Pascal win.

I'm glad I did extend this thread now. But I think that will just about do it.
I’m glad you extended the thread . I’m very impressed by your analyze .
The first Pascal fight is as great as the second , To be knocked down twice ( first and third round) and then dominate the rest rounds and got a draw ( he could have won!) is an exeptional thing to do.
But that is another story …..
 

Davie

**2020 OTH Poster of the Year**
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At domestic level, Scott Dann, Howard Eastman and Wayne Elcock would hold the Commonwealth and British titles until the emergence of Macklin, Barker and Murray who all had spells with those belts.

The EBU exchanged between Sebastian Sylvester and a Finnish fighter by the name of Amin Asikainen, a name I am not familiar with. But he never challenged at world level seemingly staying in and around European level winning and losing numerous fights for the EBU including a win and a loss to Sylvester before that title too ended up in the hands of Macklin and Barker.

Stateside the USBA seemed to be largely neglected and rarely contested with no one really ever holding it for any time, Lajuan Simon the only fighter to contest it twice in that time. While the NABF did seem to take greater significance with good names like Pavlik and McKart holding the title
 

Davie

**2020 OTH Poster of the Year**
Country Flag
Scotland
Well gents, it's been a pleasure.

I gave myself a self imposed lounge ban last month, because I was spending entirely too much time on here and on the internet in general. Cheers @Wickio

But I still spend too much time on here with less than half the content to look at.
It's still the first thing I check on my phone when I get up in the morning and I spend hours sitting scoring fights like a dafty for no cunt to read.
I need to chuck it.
I figured I still want to follow the sport closely and forums are an integral part of that for me but enough's enough.
I actually neglect other important aspects of my life sitting with a phone in my face. From friends and family to not getting through as much work or Uni study. Christ going to the gym even became about the forum for a year and a half, where every workout was itemised on my fitness thread update.

I'll still be one of those guest cunts clogging up the servers on fight night, viewing the rbr without logging in.

But this will be my last post on OTH and I thought I'd hide it away on this thread so nobody but Vlad will see it for the next couple months until Onesie gets worried.

I've put the finishing touches to my middleweight thread and in the final act of self importance, your poster of the year will sign off with a "look at me I'm leaving" type post.

It's been a genuine pleasure, had some good laughs, some cracking argument and talked to some genuine good lads, even the Tory ones.There's too many names to mention, so I won't.

Cheeriebye

Davie
 
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