Bogo's Introduction to Marx & Socialism (RIP Michael Brooks)

But clearly the ruling conservative parties don't actually have any reason or motivation to advance laws that benefit working people, and have demonstrably done the opposite. Very puzzling how you could imagine conservative parties (which are just as entrenched in finance capital and large industry as the Democrats) somehow turning into working class parties.

AOC as a figure may have varied popularity, but her policies don't. Medicare for All is extremely popular, even among many Republicans, and so is the Green New Deal among voters, but these policies have no champion in control of either party. And of course we have an electoral system that protects against majoritarian outcomes.
The motivation is to win and the political philosophy of those starting their political careers will differ from the establishment.

This is something that gives a good example of what I am talking about.

 
This is key. We don't really have a democracy, we have a very limited system that is designed to be ineffective. Who are we to say who is and isn't democratic? Western 'democracies' time and time again do not represent the views of the majority of people, and that's built in to the system, but the system also works to convince people we live in a democracy, but Cubans, for example, don't.
We do though. On a local, state and national level your vote can have a genuine impact on your life and you see the changes first hand when power shifts from one party or person to another.
 

Bogotazo

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The motivation is to win and the political philosophy of those starting their political careers will differ from the establishment.

This is something that gives a good example of what I am talking about.

Your example of a pro working-class conservative is Tucker Carlson?

Libertarians and other marginal conservatives have criticized billionaires & elites before, it doesn't stop them from wanting to dismantle social services and pander to racists in the culture war. (In fact, that's how the Nazis initially broadened their appeal through Strasser.)
 
Your example of a pro working-class conservative is Tucker Carlson?

Libertarians and other marginal conservatives have criticized billionaires & elites before, it doesn't stop them from wanting to dismantle social services and pander to racists in the culture war. (In fact, that's how the Nazis initially broadened their appeal through Strasser.)
It was an example of a changing dynamic within Conservatism. But how much of Tucker’s content have you consumed over the past 2 years?

Except the realignment that’s beginning to take shape within Conservatism in the US is to be more aligned with the social positions of their populous, particularly when it comes to Economic policy which which is largely distributive to the people. That means greater social safety nets, more openness to a public healthcare offering, industrial policy designed to boost the productive sectors of the economy. Stuff that is very basic and logical but has traditionally had a lot of enemy’s in the US.
 
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Bogotazo

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It was an example of a changing dynamic within Conservatism. But how much of Tucker’s content have you consumed over the past 2 years?

Except the realignment that’s beginning to take shape within Conservatism in the US is to be more aligned with the social positions of their populous, particularly when it comes to Economic policy which which is largely distributive to the people. That means greater social safety nets, more openness to a public healthcare offering, industrial policy designed to boost the productive sectors of the economy. Stuff that is very basic and logical but has traditionally had a lot of enemy’s in the US.
I've consumed enough to know that any apparent good will he shows towards left policies is easily destroyed by his racism and hostility towards existing progressives.

There is no meaningful conservative political body or movement seeking to expand social services in the US. If it exists, show me.

(Unless your point is that ordinary conservative voters and people are open to expanding public services, in which case, I agree. But that view has not manifested in a meaningful, distinctly conservative movement.)
 
I've consumed enough to know that any apparent good will he shows towards left policies is easily destroyed by his racism and hostility towards existing progressives.

There is no meaningful conservative political body or movement seeking to expand social services in the US. If it exists, show me.

(Unless your point is that ordinary conservative voters and people are open to expanding public services, in which case, I agree. But that view has not manifested in a meaningful, distinctly conservative movement.)
What does consume enough actually mean? Be honest have you ever watched his entire show or listened to a full interview with him? If so how many times?

Also what sources do you consume your media, news and information from?

Well yesterday the far right President of the United States called for unemployment to be extended at the higher amount, suspend payroll tax and student loan payments lol

But more seriously this is a slow moving train. But if you did go out of your way to consume for centre>conservative media you would hear policy ideas from and philosophy from politicians and conservative influencers. In fact il go as far as to say some form of UBI or CBI will be a major policy for a serious Republican candidate within the next decade.
 
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Bogotazo

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What does consume enough actually mean? Be honest have you ever watched his entire show or listened to a full interview with him? If so how many times?
Over the years I've seen several segments and interviews. On current events, his interview with Tulsi Gabbard, etc. And there were enough red flags in there for me to disqualify him as someone I think is a potential ally in any kind of political project I would support. You don't have to consume someone's entire media career to know where they stand, or to hear them make several disqualifying statements.

Also what sources do you consume your media, news and information from?
A variety of sources for different things. The Intercept, The Gray Zone, Democracy Now, Business Insider, PBS, The Economist, Forbes, The Atlantic, New York Times, Jacobin, Dissent, The Hill Rising. Mainstream outlines like CBS, CNN, Fox, MSNBC just leak into my awareness from google searches or Apple News notifications, but I don't really consume their media in-depth.

Well yesterday the far right President of the United States called for unemployment to be extended at the higher amount, suspend payroll tax and student loan payments lol

But more seriously this is a slow moving train. But if you did go out of your way to consume for centre>conservative media you would hear policy ideas from and philosophy from politicians and conservative influencers. In fact il go as far as to say some form of UBI or CBI will be a major policy for a serious Republican candidate within the next decade.
So you think after a first term of trying to dismantle the ACA, trying to cut medicaid and social security, lowering taxes on the rich, attacking the US postal service, cutting benefits for non-citizens, allowing multiple federal agencies to shrink through attrition, attacking workers' rights...that he's suddenly extending unemployment because he had some kind of genuine ideological shift, rather than desperately trying to prevent insurrectionary chaos during a pandemic on the eve of the election?

If so, you're seriously misreading the situation. I asked you for evidence of this pro-worker conservative movement on any significant level, and you've provided none. I'm not interested in "slow-moving trains" that don't confront current crises head on, and I'm not a conservative in any sense, so this imaginary movement isn't really relevant to the political landscape, the thread, or me.
 
Over the years I've seen several segments and interviews. On current events, his interview with Tulsi Gabbard, etc. And there were enough red flags in there for me to disqualify him as someone I think is a potential ally in any kind of political project I would support. You don't have to consume someone's entire media career to know where they stand, or to hear them make several disqualifying statements.



A variety of sources for different things. The Intercept, The Gray Zone, Democracy Now, Business Insider, PBS, The Economist, Forbes, The Atlantic, New York Times, Jacobin, Dissent, The Hill Rising. Mainstream outlines like CBS, CNN, Fox, MSNBC just leak into my awareness from google searches or Apple News notifications, but I don't really consume their media in-depth.



So you think after a first term of trying to dismantle the ACA, trying to cut medicaid and social security, lowering taxes on the rich, attacking the US postal service, cutting benefits for non-citizens, allowing multiple federal agencies to shrink through attrition, attacking workers' rights...that he's suddenly extending unemployment because he had some kind of genuine ideological shift, rather than desperately trying to prevent insurrectionary chaos during a pandemic on the eve of the election?

If so, you're seriously misreading the situation. I asked you for evidence of this pro-worker conservative movement on any significant level, and you've provided none. I'm not interested in "slow-moving trains" that don't confront current crises head on, and I'm not a conservative in any sense, so this imaginary movement isn't really relevant to the political landscape, the thread, or me.
I thought my “Lol but more seriously“ would have been enough to tell you I was not being serious about Trump in that post.
 
We do though. On a local, state and national level your vote can have a genuine impact on your life and you see the changes first hand when power shifts from one party or person to another.
No it can't really and that's the point. Those 'changes' that are promised (of they are even being offered or you are in a constituency where your vote counts, both unlikely) are not mandated by your vote. A direct decomracy is an actual democracy, even if it's only one party
 
No it can't really and that's the point. Those 'changes' that are promised (of they are even being offered or you are in a constituency where your vote counts, both unlikely) are not mandated by your vote. A direct decomracy is an actual democracy, even if it's only one party
Like Brexit....
 
Like Brexit....
That's the vote, the public voted and it's been enacted.

Now that the useless Labour right are back in charge, neither party is offering to nationalise rail, to deprivatise the NHS, to increase taxes substantially on the rich, to nationalise utilities. Yet these policies poll as absolute slam dunks if they were to be put to referendum. Are we in a democracy where the most popular policies are not allowed to be voted on because the rich don't allow it?
 

Davie

Former Prediction League Champion
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"Inside the Bruderhof"

@Bogotazo just watching a Christian commune in Surrey on the BBC.
The religious element aside, it would be interesting hearing your thoughts on this place. They have no money (within their own community anyway) and just share everything. They grow and farm basically all of their own food.

But they do own shit and there is a department that gets a communal stock of clothing and things. They make a lot of this themselves but still have to buy from the outside world. The funds for this come from a factory where a bunch of wageless workers make toys that they sell to the outside world.
 

Bogotazo

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"Inside the Bruderhof"

@Bogotazo just watching a Christian commune in Surrey on the BBC.
The religious element aside, it would be interesting hearing your thoughts on this place. They have no money (within their own community anyway) and just share everything. They grow and farm basically all of their own food.

But they do own shit and there is a department that gets a communal stock of clothing and things. They make a lot of this themselves but still have to buy from the outside world. The funds for this come from a factory where a bunch of wageless workers make toys that they sell to the outside world.
Nice dude, I'll definitely check it out when I can. It's not available in the US at the moment. It sounds like it's not too different from Israeli Kibbutzes and other agricultural communes. I'd be curious to see what the factory setup is like.

EDIT: Just found this quick video. "No one gets paid and everyone's work is valued the same." I wonder what kind of system they have then. Do they apportion hours?


My biggest knock on intentional communities and other types of anarchist lifestyle projects is that you need land/property to form it in the first place. A few people is likely manageable, but it can't grow beyond that without coming into conflict with the fact that almost everything is owned by someone else.
 
Do we think over time, long into the future, that Castro will be thought of more highly on a universal scale than he is now?
 
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Do we think over time, long into the future, that Castro will be thought of more highly on a universal scale than he is now?
Depends how long the yankee propaganda holds the court of public opinion. In Fidels own words, history will absolve him
 
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