Bogo's Introduction to Marx & Socialism (RIP Michael Brooks)

You didn't say hard left, you said "on the left".

But aside from that, I'm sure you could find a lot of fairly different trains of political thought on the hard fringes of the left.
Fair point.

In my experience in talking with people on the left about their political ideology, they tend to try and dismiss that they are Marxists, but then when you press them on the 10 planks they agree with all of them and will defend him.

Its similar to the “I’m not a Trump fan but I’ll go out of my way to defend him non stop and agree with almost everything he says” crowd. Lol
 
Yeah must have because it's simply not true. There hasn't been any capital punishment in Cuba for decades. You ever think that maybe people have a vested interest in portraying Cuba in a negative light?
Take away the corporate punishment. You still have people desperate and risking their lives to leave.
 

TFG

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Fair point.

In my experience in talking with people on the left about their political ideology, they tend to try and dismiss that they are Marxists, but then when you press them on the 10 planks they agree with all of them and will defend him.

Its similar to the “I’m not a Trump fan but I’ll go out of my way to defend him non stop and agree with almost everything he says” crowd. Lol
Go on then
 

TFG

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You have misunderstood my post. I never spoke of a test.
Fucking hell you might be the most obtuse cunt I've ever come across, every interaction is painful.

Re read what you said regarding the 10 planks and I'm pretty sure you'll work out what I mean.
 

TFG

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Have done. I don’t see where you get the test from.
Ok, so forget the word test considering you are an actual retard.

You said you expose people on the left as marxists when you press them on the 10 planks.

I offered you the opportunity to do taht consdiering id class my self as left wing
 
Ok, so forget the word test considering you are an actual retard.

You said you expose people on the left as marxists when you press them on the 10 planks.

I offered you the opportunity to do taht consdiering id class my self as left wing
Im not looking for arguments and insults. Enjoy your day.
 
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I'll take a typo on my phone over complete failure to hold any form of heightened discussion, you fucking mong.

As you were.
These are imo the most aggressive to the left of Marx ideals. I have found more often than not when I discuss them with someone on the left, at the very least they will defend why they would be good ideas, and in many cases actively support them. Where do you stand on them?


  • Abolition of Private Property
  • Abolition of All Rights of Inheritance
  • Confiscation of the Property from Emigrants
  • Centralization of Credit in the Hands of the State
  • Centralization of the Means of Communication
 
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Davie

Former Prediction League Champion
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These are imo the most aggressive to the left of Marx ideals. I have found more often than not when I discuss them with someone on the left, at the very least they will defend why they would be good ideas, and in many cases actively support them. Where do you stand on them?


  • Abolition of Private Property
  • Abolition of All Rights of Inheritance
  • Confiscation of the Property from Emigrants
  • Centralization of Credit in the Hands of the State
  • Centralization of the Means of Communication
1. Abolition of private property.
Bogo discussed this recently on here, championing the idea. And there were very very few takers, on a left dominant site. I think you will be hard pushed to get most ordinary left leaning folks to argue in favour of the complete abolition of private property. Would someone perhaps argue positives of such an idea? I could stretch to that, I think most political ideologies have pro's and con's

2. Abolition of all rights of inheritance?
I can't speak for the wider left but I like the idea of inheritance. I can understand why we would want a limit to it, certainly in terms of passing on vast sums of wealth and people being born into extreme privilege but I'd like to think I could leave my bairn a few grand when I pop my clogs.

3. Confiscation of the Property from Emigrants?
Well, as an extension of the "no private property" idea, that kind of makes sense. But seeing as I don't want complete abolition of private property, that just strikes me as being more the domain of racist right wing gammons.

4. Centralization of Credit in the Hands of the State?
Now we're talking.
Private banks holding all the dough are the root of all evil. The people lending to the people? I like that. You need to have a trustworthy state, holding the purse strings of course, but they'd be going some to be less trustworthy that the current system. A state ensuring money ends up being invested in mutually beneficial projects, finance being provided to aid people and not for the sole reason of creating imaginary money out of thin air, for greedy fucking crooks. I can see merits to that.

5. Centralization of the Means of Communication?
Obviously this was an entirely different question in Marx's time.
What do we mean by means of communication?
We have the BBC in television they're influence is different to the old days in terms of radio, TV and now internet, BT used to run the phones. So state run comms can work. I have had my criticisms of the Beeb, that's for sure.
Media and newspapers etc need to be able to challenge the state, the internet requires some independence. But I'd find a middle ground more appealing where the current dominance of social media is far more regulated than it currently is. Fuck Mark Zuckerberg.
It's how far does that regulation go before all media becomes the mouthpiece of the governmemt.
In short, I don't agree with 5 either.
 
1. Abolition of private property.
Bogo discussed this recently on here, championing the idea. And there were very very few takers, on a left dominant site. I think you will be hard pushed to get most ordinary left leaning folks to argue in favour of the complete abolition of private property. Would someone perhaps argue positives of such an idea? I could stretch to that, I think most political ideologies have pro's and con's

2. Abolition of all rights of inheritance?
I can't speak for the wider left but I like the idea of inheritance. I can understand why we would want a limit to it, certainly in terms of passing on vast sums of wealth and people being born into extreme privilege but I'd like to think I could leave my bairn a few grand when I pop my clogs.

3. Confiscation of the Property from Emigrants?
Well, as an extension of the "no private property" idea, that kind of makes sense. But seeing as I don't want complete abolition of private property, that just strikes me as being more the domain of racist right wing gammons.

4. Centralization of Credit in the Hands of the State?
Now we're talking.
Private banks holding all the dough are the root of all evil. The people lending to the people? I like that. You need to have a trustworthy state, holding the purse strings of course, but they'd be going some to be less trustworthy that the current system. A state ensuring money ends up being invested in mutually beneficial projects, finance being provided to aid people and not for the sole reason of creating imaginary money out of thin air, for greedy fucking crooks. I can see merits to that.

5. Centralization of the Means of Communication?
Obviously this was an entirely different question in Marx's time.
What do we mean by means of communication?
We have the BBC in television they're influence is different to the old days in terms of radio, TV and now internet, BT used to run the phones. So state run comms can work. I have had my criticisms of the Beeb, that's for sure.
Media and newspapers etc need to be able to challenge the state, the internet requires some independence. But I'd find a middle ground more appealing where the current dominance of social media is far more regulated than it currently is. Fuck Mark Zuckerberg.
It's how far does that regulation go before all media becomes the mouthpiece of the governmemt.
In short, I don't agree with 5 either.
Interesting. I listen to a conservative podcast called “The Realignment” and much of what your saying fits in to what they wish to, and feel we will see from a realignment of ring/conservative politics in the next two defaces. Essentially a move to becoming a more pro working class party, that is in favor of regulation when it’s at a benefit for wider society.
 

Davie

Former Prediction League Champion
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Interesting. I listen to a conservative podcast called “The Realignment” and much of what your saying fits in to what they wish to, and feel we will see from a realignment of ring/conservative politics in the next two defaces. Essentially a move to becoming a more pro working class party, that is in favor of regulation when it’s at a benefit for wider society.
These cunts sound like my sort of Tory
 
These cunts sound like my sort of Tory
In the US, for the past 30 years the Democratic Party has been captured by the interests of finance, real estate & tech. This narrow layer of the elite professional class have just pursued policy’s in opposition to workers, but have a fundamental disdain for working class people.

So much so that in the last election the Republicans became the working class party via Trump. Now obviously this has been a disaster and Trump, through a combo of not really believing in much of his campaign promises and with the rest not being able to effectively maneuver in the US Government system.

But the disdain for the working class means that the Democrats are unable to bring back that working class voter for good outside of an anti Trump vote. They are caught between the neoliberalism of Biden, Pelosi, Schumer and the Green New Deal Marxism Lite of AOC and the squad. None of which as appealing to the average American. In fact AOC is wildly unpopular in swing states, part of why Trump keeps talking about her.

It leaves a gap in the US Political spectrum where the Republicans can come in, with some Trump Lite policy that consists of regulation where needed, breaking away from China, wealthy need to pay the lions share of taxes, limit immigration because it stunts low income wage.
 

Bogotazo

Administrator
Staff member
In the US, for the past 30 years the Democratic Party has been captured by the interests of finance, real estate & tech. This narrow layer of the elite professional class have just pursued policy’s in opposition to workers, but have a fundamental disdain for working class people.

So much so that in the last election the Republicans became the working class party via Trump. Now obviously this has been a disaster and Trump, through a combo of not really believing in much of his campaign promises and with the rest not being able to effectively maneuver in the US Government system.

But the disdain for the working class means that the Democrats are unable to bring back that working class voter for good outside of an anti Trump vote. They are caught between the neoliberalism of Biden, Pelosi, Schumer and the Green New Deal Marxism Lite of AOC and the squad. None of which as appealing to the average American. In fact AOC is wildly unpopular in swing states, part of why Trump keeps talking about her.

It leaves a gap in the US Political spectrum where the Republicans can come in, with some Trump Lite policy that consists of regulation where needed, breaking away from China, wealthy need to pay the lions share of taxes, limit immigration because it stunts low income wage.
But clearly the ruling conservative parties don't actually have any reason or motivation to advance laws that benefit working people, and have demonstrably done the opposite. Very puzzling how you could imagine conservative parties (which are just as entrenched in finance capital and large industry as the Democrats) somehow turning into working class parties.

AOC as a figure may have varied popularity, but her policies don't. Medicare for All is extremely popular, even among many Republicans, and so is the Green New Deal among voters, but these policies have no champion in control of either party. And of course we have an electoral system that protects against majoritarian outcomes.
 
Take away the corporate punishment. You still have people desperate and risking their lives to leave.
But if you admit you've fallen for bullshit about people being executed for trying to leave, why does that not make you wonder what else you've read and believed uncritically?
 
But clearly the ruling conservative parties don't actually have any reason or motivation to advance laws that benefit working people, and have demonstrably done the opposite. Very puzzling how you could imagine conservative parties (which are just as entrenched in finance capital and large industry as the Democrats) somehow turning into working class parties.

AOC as a figure may have varied popularity, but her policies don't. Medicare for All is extremely popular, even among many Republicans, and so is the Green New Deal among voters, but these policies have no champion in control of either party. And of course we have an electoral system that protects against majoritarian outcomes.
This is key. We don't really have a democracy, we have a very limited system that is designed to be ineffective. Who are we to say who is and isn't democratic? Western 'democracies' time and time again do not represent the views of the majority of people, and that's built in to the system, but the system also works to convince people we live in a democracy, but Cubans, for example, don't.
 
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