365 Day Challenge Day 2: Ezzard Charles v Lloyd Marshall II

[One to watch]

Good little Ezzard montage here. Much better footage than we have here and you get to see Ezzard work a bit better, albeit nearing the end of his prime in most of those fights.

Reminds me of a massive version of Robinson tbh, not as fast mind in either feet nor hands but the way he dictates his range, combinations he throws, way he sets his shots up. He moves like him as well just not as much speed (though heavys dont and this isnt the prime version). Robinson is more graceful with his punchibg though, Ezzards shots are slightly telegraphed but he comes from weird angles ans they look stiff (as in hard).

Cracking.

Those short right hands he lands are murderous.Funny seeing him lay out all those guys when he lands flush,yet Marciano stands so solid.

 

[Tom Cruise]

No chance of me doing every day of this, but I can’t turn down a chance to talk about Charles.

This looked like a gruelling, if messy fight. What astonishes me watching Charles is his adaptability to anything style. He could brawl with a brawler, box with a boxer, he could punch, he could be slick, he could move. He had everything. Marshall fought like a brute in this one, and Charles took it and gave it right back to him. Beautiful counter hook to end it, wish we had clearer footage of it.

Charles, for me, sits in comfortably at no.5 in my ATG list behind the four horsemen (Greb, SRR, Langford, Armstrong) but the more you learn about his career the closer he gets to those holiest of names.

Top tier great wins at MW, LHW and HW (one of the rarest weight climbs), probably the GOAT LHW all time, he was an absolute G.

I don’t know as much about Marshall aside from his record being as stacked as all the other murderers row guys. He looks a seriously strong, rough and tough opponent in this one.

 

[Lunny]

Is all that smoke from people lighting up cigs? Looks hot as hell too, people fanning themselves in the crowd.

Hard bastards

 

[Psycho Shaun]

No chance of me doing every day of this, but I can’t turn down a chance to talk about Charles.

This looked like a gruelling, if messy fight. What astonishes me watching Charles is his adaptability to anything style. He could brawl with a brawler, box with a boxer, he could punch, he could be slick, he could move. He had everything. Marshall fought like a brute in this one, and Charles took it and gave it right back to him. Beautiful counter hook to end it, wish we had clearer footage of it.

Charles, for me, sits in comfortably at no.5 in my ATG list behind the four horsemen (Greb, SRR, Langford, Armstrong) but the more you learn about his career the closer he gets to those holiest of names.

Top tier great wins at MW, LHW and HW (one of the rarest weight climbs), probably the GOAT LHW all time, he was an absolute G.

I don’t know as much about Marshall aside from his record being as stacked as all the other murderers row guys. He looks a seriously strong, rough and tough opponent in this one.

Marshall was a top amateur, had over 200 fights, was in consideration for the Olympics but passed up the chance to turn pro.

Never got his chance to run with the gold as a pro. He absolutely battered Freddie Mills in Britain and Mills was given a title shot (which he won) the following year. Sometimes other people have all the luck (considering there was an era of Moore, Ezzard, Marshall, Williams etc only archie got a shot and that took an eternity).

His best years were prob during the war. In that period he beat La Motta, Ezzard, Burley, Williams, Romero, Yarosz, Christofiordis, Chase and Maxim and was given what amounts to an interim title.

I read a story once about his fight with Archie. Apparently they fought on the same card and Marshall took some liberties with his overmatched opponent (cant remember who it was) and Archie called him out on it. Said they were all trying to make a buck and beating a guy who was outmatched might stop him making a wage for a while. Marshall shrugged it off as nothing, Archie remembered.

Fast forward to 1945 and Marshall is fighting Moore, apparently Moore didnt hold back on him and beat the holy hell out of him (I assume the second fight but who knows).

 

[Davie]

). Robinson is more graceful with his punchibg though, Ezzards shots are slightly telegraphed but he comes from weird angles ans they look stiff (as in hard).

Those left hooks he throws are right out of the Robinson repertoire brought up from the waist, don't get the elbow behind the hook and kind of spring up when they throw it.
A million miles from a text book shot and you'd probably get your arse booted by a trainer for throwing them these days.
But a routinely thrown shot by Robinson, to great effect and you see Ezzard knocking a few over here with the same shot.

 

[Davie]

Marshall was a top amateur, had over 200 fights, was in consoderation for the Olympics but passed up the chance to turn pro.

Never got his chance to run with the gold as a pro. He absolutely battered Freddie Mills in Britain and Mills was given a title shot (which he won) the fillowing year. Sometimes other peiple have all the luck (considering there was an era of Moore, Ezzard, Marshall, Williams etc only archie git a shot and thag took an eternity).

His best years were prob during the war. In that period he beat La Motta, Ezzard, Burley, Williams, Romero, Yarosz, Christofiordis, Chase and Maxim and was given what amounts to an interim title.

I read a story once about his fight with Archie. Apparebtly they fought on the same card and Marshall took some liberties with his overmatched opponent (cant remember who it was) and Archie called him out on it. Said they were all trying to make a buck and beating a guy who was outmatched might stop him making a wage for a while. Marshall shrugged it off as nothing, Archie remembered.

Fast forward to 1945 and Marshall is fighting Moore, apparently Moore didnt hold back on and beat the holy hell out of him (I assume the second fight but who knows).

From about 40-52 it's an absolute disgrace seeing the likes of Lesnevich, Mills and Maxim dominate that title at a time when Ezzard and Moore are active, Jimmy Bivins, Harold Johnston, Lloyd Marshall, Jack Chase, Bert Lytell, Oakland Billy Smith, Eddie Booker, Booker Beckwith and the Alabama kid all appear in the upper reaches of the LHW rankings

I think Billy Fox was one of the very few ranked light heavyweight fighters to get a chance prior to Archie Moore

 

[Roe]

Interesting choice this one for day 2. I'm not familiar with these guys or this era at all really, so it's almost like watching a different sport for me (not to mention the iffy black and white footage of the time).

I can see why this may have been considered a great fight for the time, it certainly looked like a lively brawl, but honestly I just can't quite get invested in it watching it back now without really knowing the context of the fight.

@Chatty @Davie and @Tom Cruise have helped colour it in a bit so to speak with your posts sharing your knowledge on it. Appreciate that.

Looked like quite a high body shot for the knockout and from the short highlights video it appeared, at least to me, that Charles was always doing the better work apart from the fast start by Marshall.

 

[Dempsey]

Fascinating stuff gonna have to whip out Toledo’s Murderers Row book to refresh my memory on Marshall,He was very active until the Oakland Billy Smith KO loss then just the seven fights in 3 years…He lived until 1997 cant find any interviews online tho

 

[TSOL]

Interesting choice this one for day 2. I'm not familiar with these guys or this era at all really, so it's almost like watching a different sport for me (not to mention the iffy black and white footage of the time).

I can see why this may have been considered a great fight for the time, it certainly looked like a lively brawl, but honestly I just can't quite get invested in it watching it back now without really knowing the context of the fight.

@Chatty @Davie and @Tom Cruise have helped colour it in a bit so to speak with your posts sharing your knowledge on it. Appreciate that.

Looked like quite a high body shot for the knockout and from the short highlights video it appeared, at least to me, that Charles was always doing the better work apart from the fast start by Marshall.

ezzard charles m8. GOAT LHW, atg mw and hw. top 10 all time

 

[Bolo]

Not a great fight tbh. Quality of footage and lack of sound made it hard to watch too. Suppose it’s good to see one of the all-time greats stopping a notoriously tough and historically significant competitor though.

 

[Davie]

I'm not familiar with these guys or this era at all really.

Oh the shame @Roe
Ezzard Charles?
The 1940s?
There are few more historically significant figures in the sport.
The is no more significant era!

 

[Roe]

I know of Ezzard Charles because I know he's often brought up whenever people list the greatest fighters ever, but my knowledge of what he was actually like is poor. That's why this challenge is great for me cuz it'll make me watch some older footage and fights I haven't seen before and maybe learn more historical stuff.

 

[Anorak]

Marshall was a top amateur, had over 200 fights, was in consideration for the Olympics but passed up the chance to turn pro.

Never got his chance to run with the gold as a pro. He absolutely battered Freddie Mills in Britain and Mills was given a title shot (which he won) the following year. Sometimes other people have all the luck (considering there was an era of Moore, Ezzard, Marshall, Williams etc only archie got a shot and that took an eternity).

His best years were prob during the war. In that period he beat La Motta, Ezzard, Burley, Williams, Romero, Yarosz, Christofiordis, Chase and Maxim and was given what amounts to an interim title.

I read a story once about his fight with Archie. Apparently they fought on the same card and Marshall took some liberties with his overmatched opponent (cant remember who it was) and Archie called him out on it. Said they were all trying to make a buck and beating a guy who was outmatched might stop him making a wage for a while. Marshall shrugged it off as nothing, Archie remembered.

Fast forward to 1945 and Marshall is fighting Moore, apparently Moore didnt hold back on him and beat the holy hell out of him (I assume the second fight but who knows).

I have said this before on the other forum Chatty but my uncle was actually at ringside for the Marshall vs Mills fight. As a kid I never tired of him telling me about it. To sum up,Freddie who as you know was a noted hard man and NOT noted for being china chinned,outweighed or looked to have outweighed Marshall by a significant amount. Marshall lifted him off his feet with a punch and when he got up he was facing away from Marshall. Devastating KO.
As you or somebody else said Freddie went on to do very well AFTER this fight, which is a credit to him. But probably better fighters never got a chance. Somebody said Archie did after a long wait, and so did Harold Johnson . Both my personal favourites. Both beat Nino Valses,the scourge of British heavyweights. Johnson beat Eddie Machen,the only boxer to go the distance with peak Sonny Liston for years, and a man Cos Damato kept Floyd Patterson away from. Wrongly as it later turned out.

 

[Anorak]

View attachment 690

From about 40-52 it's an absolute disgrace seeing the likes of Lesnevich, Mills and Maxim dominate that title at a time when Ezzard and Moore are active, Jimmy Bivins, Harold Johnston, Lloyd Marshall, Jack Chase, Bert Lytell, Oakland Billy Smith, Eddie Booker, Booker Beckwith and the Alabama kid all appear in the upper reaches of the LHW rankings

I think Billy Fox was one of the very few ranked light heavyweight fighters to get a chance prior to Archie Moore

I think we've got to give Maxim,out of the three you mention,Davie,a bit of credit. Moore took his title off him, so Maxim gave him his shot. Maxim took the title off Mills in the UK by knockout. He was also the first boxer,I think, to beat a young gold medallist in Floyd Patterson. I think if we look at his record wed see he didn't avoid anybody. And he DID beat Sugar Ray Robinson,whatever anybody says about the fight.

 

[Davie]

I think we've got to give Maxim,out of the three you mention,Davie,a bit of credit. Moore took his title off him, so Maxim gave him his shot. Maxim took the title off Mills in the UK by knockout. He was also the first boxer,I think, to beat a young gold medallist in Floyd Patterson. I think if we look at his record wed see he didn't avoid anybody. And he DID beat Sugar Ray Robinson,whatever anybody says about the fight.

Oh absolutely. My post maybe didn't come across as intended mate, not digging out the fighters. Don't know much about Lesnevich but the other two, as you point out in this post and the one before with Mills, took on some good fighters.
It was the boxing politics of the day that stop so many great black fighters getting shots, the people making the fights were to blame.
In fact even the black fighters of the day were often only interested in fighting the white fighters that gave them the big paydays.

All of these fighters faced top black fighters in not title bouts or even when black men held the titles. They had no fear of fighting them, the black fighters just never got the shots at the titles.

I just had a wee peek at Lesnevich's record and he fought Bivins in a non title fight and challenged Ezzard for the heavyweight crown in his last bout. As I said he gave Billy Fox 2 shots as well.

 

[Psycho Shaun]

Oh absolutely. My post maybe didn't come across as intended mate, not digging out the fighters. Don't know much about Lesnevich but the other two, as you point out in this post and the one before with Mills, took on some good fighters.
It was the boxing politics of the day that stop so many great black fighters getting shots, the people making the fights were to blame.
In fact even the black fighters of the day were often only interested in fighting the white fighters that gave them the big paydays.

All of these fighters faced top black fighters in not title bouts or even when black men held the titles. They had no fear of fighting them, the black fighters just never got the shots at the titles.

I just had a wee peek at Lesnevich's record and he fought Bivins in a non title fight and challenged Ezzard for the heavyweight crown in his last bout. As I said he gave Billy Fox 2 shots as well.

Yeah the Bivins fight was supposed to lead to a title fight if Bivins won. He won so well that they scuppered the deal.

 

[Anorak]

Oh absolutely. My post maybe didn't come across as intended mate, not digging out the fighters. Don't know much about Lesnevich but the other two, as you point out in this post and the one before with Mills, took on some good fighters.
It was the boxing politics of the day that stop so many great black fighters getting shots, the people making the fights were to blame.
In fact even the black fighters of the day were often only interested in fighting the white fighters that gave them the big paydays.

All of these fighters faced top black fighters in not title bouts or even when black men held the titles. They had no fear of fighting them, the black fighters just never got the shots at the titles.

I just had a wee peek at Lesnevich's record and he fought Bivins in a non title fight and challenged Ezzard for the heavyweight crown in his last bout. As I said he gave Billy Fox 2 shots as well.

Yes Davie true. What an era. Archie Moore,Harold Johnson,not to mention Willie Pastrano among my all time favourites. Have you ever read "In this corner" where the section on Pastrano he tells of his drawn fight with Moore and Archie tells him to stand still and he does. Moore must have been a hypnotist as well as a great boxer.

 

[Davie]

This era of Murderers row fighters alway fascinates me, I've watched footage here and there, where i can.

But the poor quality of clips, usually just highlights with sections of round like we have above, doesn't give the full picture.

This is where Boxrec surfing really comes into its own, I love reading the records of guys like these. I mean just look at this:
Link to Ezzards record <=click me

Just scour the names alone up to and including Marciano in 54. He's 85-11-1 and he has fought everybody, then you start clicking other top names and seeing the same names appearing on everyones record, then you look at the stories behind them. What a time to follow boxing that must have been, the fact you couldn't get regular footage at the time would have been brutal, the boxing mags would have been incredible though.

Here's Lloyds record:
http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/128

Not quite as impressive as Ezzards but still a bloody who's who of boxing from the 30s/40s/50s.

I could sit and read this shit for hours.

@One to watch

See, no point lying about that shit
My knowledge all comes from boxrec

I just had a wee peek at Lesnevich's record and he fought Bivins in a non title fight and challenged Ezzard for the heavyweight crown in his last bout. As I said he gave Billy Fox 2 shots as well.

See did it again there

View attachment 690

From about 40-52 it's an absolute disgrace seeing the likes of Lesnevich, Mills and Maxim dominate that title at a time when Ezzard and Moore are active, Jimmy Bivins, Harold Johnston, Lloyd Marshall, Jack Chase, Bert Lytell, Oakland Billy Smith, Eddie Booker, Booker Beckwith and the Alabama kid all appear in the upper reaches of the LHW rankings

I think Billy Fox was one of the very few ranked light heavyweight fighters to get a chance prior to Archie Moore

Even hit me some wikipedia

 

[One to watch]

@One to watch

See, no point lying about that shit
My knowledge all comes from boxrec

And I love you all the more for the acknowledgment.

 

[One to watch]

So this is the type of bout that really attracts me to this challenge.

I have heard all about Charles of course but really know very little of substance.Marshall to me is a total mystery.

First off the footage is poor and the sound non excistent but what originally seems a largely negative viewing experience quickly becomes fascinating.This era is so distinct in boxing,the busy smoke filled halls and the basic almost primeval feel of the sport at its most pure.I can see why there’s such an attraction to studying the old timers.

Charles has a nice style,Marshall is more untidy and it seems to me a lot of the early clinching comes about because of his urge to force the pace and make it a rough fight rather than a boxing match (I could be wrong here,I mean I am struggling to tell who is who FFS )
Charles attempts to pick his punches and box in mid range but swings in hard hooks and goes to the body well when asserting his authority.

A quick google/boxrec tells me Marshall beat Ezzard Charles (their first meeting,he dropped Charles 8 times),Charles Burley,Freddie Mills,Jake Lamotta,Joey Maxim,Holman Williams and many more on the way to his eventual 70-25-4 record.A year on from this he would meet Charles for a third time but succumb to a 2nd round KO.
He never officially fought for a world title but did win the ‘duration’ world light heavyweight title,his peak years were whilst the Second World War.
Marshall like Charles is an IBHOF inductee.

Charles also lost 25 times in this incredibly tough era,most of those in the last few years of his pro career when he was past his best.
He racked up a 95-25-1 record and even casuals like me know the basics on him.Possibly the greatest light heavyweight of all time,won and defended the world heavyweight title nine times and is considered one of the greatest boxers to have ever laced them up.His resume is quite simply ridiculously deep when viewed through the eyes of a modern day fan.

Great stuff

@Davie

A post dripping in boxrec and google stats.